Raskol se zahuktava

[MKD13]

пре 19 минута, Ведран* рече

Можда ти имаш привиђења па на теми видиш и неке невидљиве силе којима сте ви једини разлог за противљење овом продубљивању раскола, али то нико није рекао.

За себе лично могу да ти потврдим, да и не постојите мој став би био исти.

Знаш, у психологији је такође познат тај феномен када мислиш да се све дешава због тебе.

Дакле чека Барт да види како ћете се звати, да се не брука пред светом. Иначе, јесте ли одлучили хоћете ли бити Македонци или нешто друго? Ја вас подржавам, ко год одлучите да сте. И у томе се исто разликујем од Барта. Он вас не подржава, ако сте Македонци. 

Вама Цариград не може да да аутокефалију. Њу можете добити само од СПЦ. Мислим може, као што је и Америка могла да нас бомбардује. Али...

Ok ne samo nas, vec i crnogorce i hrvate, onde gde SPC je prosirila svoje granice za vreme Kraljevine. Al posto "kanonicnost" tog prosirenja je bila Kraljevina, da ne citiram sad Tomos, a Kraljevina vise ne postoji i Tomos sad nije aktuelan. Ili ako prifatate Tomos po logiku i Duhu Tomosa duzni ste da date autokefalnost onima koji vise nisu u Kraljevini a zhele neovisnost. Sam Tomos je vec izhivljen i preka potreba ima da se stanje na terenu redefinira. 

Al posto SPC sad nije saglasna na to, ne zbog crkvenih pobuda a nacionalizmom, suprotno duhu Tomosa na koje pociva njena jurisdikcija, onda i Carigrad ima "pravo" da se umesa. 

Istorijski Carigrad mnogo puta je to radio, shto ne bi i sad, samo zato shto vama to ne odgovara? 

I svako koji ce da prekine evharistiju sa Carigradom zbog toga a ne zbog jeresi bice raskolnik. Mozete da ga osudite zbog Ekumenizma, to ce biti dimna zavesa za svoje nekanonsko prekidanja opstenja, al onda po shta cete se razlikovati od Artemita?

Jeste Carigrad narusava kanone al time on ne otpada od Crkve, staroobredci isto su obvinili Carigrad za otstupanja od Pravoslavlja i prekinuli opstenje i tako su sami postali raskolnici. 

[Благовесник]

пре 2 часа, Ведран* рече

Он вас не подржава, ако сте Македонци. 

Чиме показује да су му Грци и грчки етос на првом месту, и толико о природној а не еклесиолошкој ипостаси цариградског (фанариотског) патријарха, и томе да Грци нису највећи етнофилетисти (од IV и  V века до данас!). 

[Zayron]

пре 7 часа, Срђан Шијакињић рече

Зајроне, прочитао сам овај интервју који си поставио, као и беседу пат. Варт. од јуче и само бих указао на две ствари: 1) пат. Варт. каже да је у 16. веку РПЦ добила аутокефалију ("Njeno je pravo dobiti samostalnost a na drugu stranu je to pravo i to dokonce privilegovano pravo našeg Ekumenskog patrijarhata, da joj autokefaliju udijeli, isto kao što ju je udjeljivao svim mladjim pravoslavnim crkvama počevši od Ruske u 16. vijeku sve do češke i slovačke crkve, kako sam već rekao."), па не знам како је то сад одједном спорно; и још важније за целу тему 2) све и да узмемо, разговора ради, да је тачно да "samo pravo da Kijevskom Metropolijom upravlja na odredjeno vrijeme koje nije striktno označeno ni definisano a pri poštovanju danih uslova (morao se spominjati carigradski patrijarh kao poglavar Majke Crkve Kijevske Mitropolije kojim je KP, ne smije manuplirati s njom bez saglasnosti i znanja Majke Crkve tj. KP što ova nije poštovala itd.). Inače nepoštivanje tih uslova tog dekreta povlači sa sobom i njegovu ništavnost...", ова скупина којој ће се можда "дати аутокефалност" није наследница Кијевске Митрополије, а њена призната наследница, није тражила ништа ни од кога. 

Иначе, разумем је да се овде све врти око неких ствари које немају везе са хришћанством, али и даље сам изненађен како ико озбиљан, а не једна Патријаршија и један патријарх па још Васељенски, себи дозвољава такве противречности. Ако је ова екипа наследница Кијевске Митрополије, шта је онда УПЦ-МП, коју Вас. патријаршија такође ваљда признаје... Лудило. Цела аргументација је на нивоу домаћих политичара.

Izgleda to kontradiktorno ali s gledišta kanonskog prava nije. Neko je napisao da u Pravoslavlju ne postoji tačna, egzaktna i odredjena procedura kako se dolazi do autokefalije. Ništa manje carigradska patrijaršija kao dokaz njom validno dane autokefalije (pri tom se smatra jedinom u Pravoslavlju koja tu autokefalliju može dati) smatra tomos njom izdan a koji RPC nema. Inače političkim činom je takodjer kada nekakav ataman sa hordom svojih kozaka iznudi nad "popovima" sve ono što mu volja a ništa ne mjenja na tome da se to desilo 2339 km daleko od Carigrada i negdje u 16 vijeku (vrlo pojednostavljeno ali nikako istorijski neistinito), na to je Patrijarh Vartolomej mislio. Carigradska Patrijaršija je ništa manje, de facto RPC autokefaliju priznala i to se ne može više poreći ni opozvati i kad bi to danas neko htio, no, ne kao nasljednici Kijevske Mitropolije kao ni jurisdikcijski teritorij s tim spojen (tim titulom se RPC sama, samozvano obdarovala, neopravnjeno sa gledišta carigradske Patrijaršije) već kao novom crkvenom utvaru koji sa Kijevskom Mitropolijom nema nikakve veze niti može računati na prerogative iz tog naslova i titula nasljednice Kijevske Mitropolije. To je otprilike kao kad kupiš nešto u supermarketu, baciš račun a na izlazu te momak od Security službe osumnjiči da to nisi kupio za pare ni na karticu već sa 10 prstiju i zatraži da to dokažeš nekom potvrdom. A te potvrde nigdje. Ili kad prijaviš da si zaboravio kofer, kofer se našao i oni te pitaju šta je unutra kako bi identifikovali pravog vlasnika a ti ne znaš šta je unutra. Tako nekako otprilike. 

[Ведран*]

пре 4 часа, MKD13 рече

Al posto "kanonicnost" tog prosirenja je bila Kraljevina, da ne citiram sad Tomos, a Kraljevina vise ne postoji i Tomos sad nije aktuelan. 

По твоме разумевању требали би да самоукинемо целу СПЦ јер више нема краљевине. 

пре 4 часа, MKD13 рече

Ili ako prifatate Tomos po logiku i Duhu Tomosa duzni ste da date autokefalnost onima koji vise nisu u Kraljevini a zhele neovisnost

И зашто онда тврдиш да Цариград треба да вам да аутокефалност? Определи се шта заступаш. 

пре 4 часа, MKD13 рече

Al posto SPC sad nije saglasna na to, ne zbog crkvenih pobuda a nacionalizmom, 

Не блеји. Управо ви нисте ни настали због Црквених побуда. 

пре 4 часа, MKD13 рече

onda i Carigrad ima "pravo" da se umesa. 

По којим то канонима има право тако да се меша? По канонима баба Војданка из Долно Дупени?

пре 5 часа, MKD13 рече

I svako koji ce da prekine evharistiju sa Carigradom zbog toga a ne zbog jeresi bice raskolnik. 

Чујеш ли ти себе? Због чега сте се ви издвојили из Цркве? И шта сте ви сада?

[Дијана.]

Braco, lijepo vas je I poucno citati, iako povod za vasu pricu I nije lijep. Nadam se da naslov I nije prava srz teme, mozda bi tacniji bio da je - razdor medj' nekim glavesinama se zahuktava. Ali tema je opsezno pokrila istorijat svih raskola, od velike sizme I odvajanja Rimske patrijarsije od ostatka Crkve, do ovih modernih, manjih I manje bitnih raskolcica. Meni je kao laiku I neznalici, pre svega iz citanja ovde, jasno, koji su da kazem crkveno-politicki razlozi V.S. tada bili, da je Crkva do tad, bila ustrojena kao PC sad, drustvo jednakih, I prvi, priznat iz ljubavi. Bas kao sto su Apostoli I bili, iako je Petar bio prvi, Pavle, posljednji znamo I kako dosavsi, nije nista manji bio ni u vremenu tadssnjem, ni u istoriji I slavi posle. Imam pitanje oko tog Petrovog prvenstva, jer su hiperbolisuci upravo to, RK dosli do ovakve Crkve I ucenja kako imaju. Prvo, da li je Petar ikada bio episkop Rima, ili je samo postavio prvog episkopa Rima? Pavle ga nikad ne spominje da je u Rimu? Ako je odgovor ne, sa svim konotacijama, zasto se papski tron zove Petrova stolica? Je li Petar, koji je trazio da bude raspet naglavacke, za sebe smatrao da je poglavar tadasnje Crkve, I uopste, nesto posebno, narocito u odnosu na druge? Da li je Stijena bez Jedanaestorice, dovoljan da cini Crkvu? Napasaj ovce moje, zar nije to, budi dobri pastir, nikakav vodj? Jer I drugi su Apostoli tj.ostalih 11 postavljali episkope, itd. Da li je Rimski episkop u drevnoj crkvi dobio prvenstvo jer je bio srediste carevine, posle I Carigrad, iz istih razloga? A Jerusalim, I bjese li Antiohija, su najdrevnija Crkva, Majka-crkva. Eto, bilo bi korisno da se ovo za siri laicki auditorij ovo obrazlozi. Hvala braco :-)

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[grigorije22]

Sta ce nasa Crkva da uradi? Hoce da stane uz Moskvu ili Carigrad? Sta ako Carigrad prizna Dedaica u Crnoj Gori?

[Zoran Đurović]

пре 14 минута, Дијана. рече

Prvo, da li je Petar ikada bio episkop Rima, ili je samo postavio prvog episkopa Rima? Pavle ga nikad ne spominje da je u Rimu? Ako je odgovor ne, sa svim konotacijama, zasto se papski tron zove Petrova stolica?

Нит6и је био владика нити је поставио владику. До Папе Виктора Римом су управаљали презвитери. Синод. Синагогални начин управе црквом, не монократски. Како се моноепископатски начин успоставио и у другим црквама, тако је прихваћена и легенда о божанском примату Прве столице Рима. Наиме, и другим владикама се допало да су принчеви цркве. Каталози које налазимо у Јевсевија и Иринеја нису историјски поуздани него направљени зарад политичких циљева и апологетских потреба (гностици - против њих се тврди да су епископи легитимни наследници јавног учења које је Ис преко апостола предао другима, а не насамо). Уместо синедриона-синода, убедљивије је било поређати сукцесивно имена презвитерског тела који је руководио римском црквом, него да се позива на мноштво. То је Иринеј урадио, али код њега налазимо још увек сведочанство о синодској управи. То су моменти кад се заборави. Писали Симонети и други.  

пре 16 минута, Дијана. рече

Da li je Rimski episkop u drevnoj crkvi dobio prvenstvo jer je bio srediste carevine, posle I Carigrad, iz istih razloga?

   Да. Када пак изгубе војно-политичку моћ, позивају се на божанско право. Канони који дају првенство Константинопољу су сасвима јасни: Мотив је политички престиж. Канони не помињу никакав други мотив. 

[MKD13]

пре 41 минута, Ведран* рече

По твоме разумевању требали би да самоукинемо целу СПЦ јер више нема краљевине. 

И зашто онда тврдиш да Цариград треба да вам да аутокефалност? Определи се шта заступаш. 

Не блеји. Управо ви нисте ни настали због Црквених побуда. 

По којим то канонима има право тако да се меша? По канонима баба Војданка из Долно Дупени?

Чујеш ли ти себе? Због чега сте се ви издвојили из Цркве? И шта сте ви сада?

Tomos o vasej autokefalnosti tvrdi da vam se pridodaju crkvene jurisdikcije zbog novonastle politicke situacije "Srpska Kraljevina". Sad nema Kraljevina a vi hocete jos uvek da imate istu jurisdikciju. Jl to je u duhu Tomosa na kome se temelji autokefalnost SPC? Nije. Znaci ili vi sad ne delujete kanonski, ili sam Tomos i vasa autokefalnost je pod znak pitanja.

Ja bih voleo od vas da proizlazi inicijativa za dobivanje nase autokefalije, al posto vi ne nameravate da nam je date, onda Carigrad je dobrodosao, malo ce da se iskupi za onda kad nam je uzurpirao Eparhije. Kanone koje to regulisu nema, skoro uvek kad se stvarale autokefalije, kanone su zaobilazene, nacela su bile samo politicke okolnosti. Carigrad uvek je izlazio pobednik ijako skoro uvek je narusavao crkvene kanone. Ja bih se rukovodio ovde iskljucivo po pravdi i zhelju naroda koji zive na spornu jurisdikciju.

Mi smo svoju autokefalnost oduvek temeljili na Ohridskoj Arhiepiskopiji koja je nekanonski ukinuta.

Nema kanone po kojima moze da se mesa Carigrad, samo istorisku praksu ima na svoju stranu, kao i vi sto nemate pravo da drzite eparhije Ohridske crkve samo na osnovu Tomosa o Kraljevini.

Mi nismo se odvojili, vec ste vi prekinuli opstenje sa nama. Nas "greh" je proglasavanje autokefalije, a ne odvajanje.

Nebitno za mene kako cemo do autokefalije, kanone ko je to regulisu nema, uglavnom Carigrad sve sredi)), bitno je da su prava koja su nekanonski oduzeta od Ohridske Arhiepiskopije, priznaju.

 

[Ведран*]

Шћедох да бачим коску и да кажем да Апостол Петар није био Папа Римски, али Ава бачи нуклеарку, пре мене. 

[Ведран*]

пре 40 минута, grigorije22 рече

Sta ce nasa Crkva da uradi? 

Држаћемо се старих србских обичаја, тј. ништа нећемо да урадимо. 

[Дијана.]

Hvala Avo, ali nije opet jasno. Koga RKC tu onda obmanjuje? Papa nije nasljednik Petra, a koji nije bio ni poglavar drevne crkve, ne u onom smislu koji mu oni 1000 g.pridaju? U cemu se zasniva papski primat kako je sada kod njih definisan? Na osnovu cega ocekuju da mi to prihvatimo? Kako da taj uzrok velike sizme prevladamo, ako se druga teoloska pitanja I rijese? Njihovi starokatolici se protive 'nepogresivosti pape'? Oni su nam blizi od zvanicne RKC? Jasno je da jesmo najblizi mi, od svih hriscanskih konfesija, narocito mi obicni vjernici, da imamo istu vjeru, iste svetinje, ista osjecanja. Ali jasno je I da to nije ista vjera, jer vise nije ista teologija, eklisiologija...

Послато са HUAWEI SCL-L01 користећи Pouke.org мобилну апликацију

[Bernard]

1 hour ago, Дијана. рече

Braco, lijepo vas je I poucno citati, iako povod za vasu pricu I nije lijep. Nadam se da naslov I nije prava srz teme, mozda bi tacniji bio da je - razdor medj' nekim glavesinama se zahuktava. Ali tema je opsezno pokrila istorijat svih raskola, od velike sizme I odvajanja Rimske patrijarsije od ostatka Crkve, do ovih modernih, manjih I manje bitnih raskolcica. Meni je kao laiku I neznalici, pre svega iz citanja ovde, jasno, koji su da kazem crkveno-politicki razlozi V.S. tada bili, da je Crkva do tad, bila ustrojena kao PC sad, drustvo jednakih, I prvi, priznat iz ljubavi. Bas kao sto su Apostoli I bili, iako je Petar bio prvi, Pavle, posljednji znamo I kako dosavsi, nije nista manji bio ni u vremenu tadssnjem, ni u istoriji I slavi posle. Imam pitanje oko tog Petrovog prvenstva, jer su hiperbolisuci upravo to, RK dosli do ovakve Crkve I ucenja kako imaju. Prvo, da li je Petar ikada bio episkop Rima, ili je samo postavio prvog episkopa Rima? Pavle ga nikad ne spominje da je u Rimu? Ako je odgovor ne, sa svim konotacijama, zasto se papski tron zove Petrova stolica? Je li Petar, koji je trazio da bude raspet naglavacke, za sebe smatrao da je poglavar tadasnje Crkve, I uopste, nesto posebno, narocito u odnosu na druge? Da li je Stijena bez Jedanaestorice, dovoljan da cini Crkvu? Napasaj ovce moje, zar nije to, budi dobri pastir, nikakav vodj? Jer I drugi su Apostoli tj.ostalih 11 postavljali episkope, itd. Da li je Rimski episkop u drevnoj crkvi dobio prvenstvo jer je bio srediste carevine, posle I Carigrad, iz istih razloga? A Jerusalim, I bjese li Antiohija, su najdrevnija Crkva, Majka-crkva. Eto, bilo bi korisno da se ovo za siri laicki auditorij ovo obrazlozi. Hvala braco :-)

Послато са HUAWEI SCL-L01 користећи Pouke.org мобилну апликацију
 

Origins of Peter as Pope

The New Testament contains five different metaphors for the foundation of the Church (Matt. 16:18, 1 Cor. 3:11, Eph. 2:20, 1 Pet. 2:5–6, Rev. 21:14). One metaphor that has been disputed is Jesus Christ’s calling the apostle Peter "rock": "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18). 

Some have tried to argue that Jesus did not mean that his Church would be built on Peter but on something else. 

Some argue that in this passage there is a minor difference between the Greek term for Peter (Petros) and the term for rock (petra), yet they ignore the obvious explanation: petra, a feminine noun, has simply been modifed to have a masculine ending, since one would not refer to a man (Peter) as feminine. The change in the gender is purely for stylistic reasons. 

These critics also neglect the fact that Jesus spoke Aramaic, and, as John 1:42 tells us, in everyday life he actually referred to Peter as Kepha or Cephas (depending on how it is transliterated). It is that term which is then translated into Greek as petros. Thus, what Jesus actually said to Peter in Aramaic was: "You are Kepha and on this very kepha I will build my Church." 

The Church Fathers, those Christians closest to the apostles in time, culture, and theological background, clearly understood that Jesus promised to build the Church on Peter, as the following passages show. 

 

Tatian the Syrian

"Simon Cephas answered and said, ‘You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.’ Jesus answered and said unto him, ‘Blessed are you, Simon, son of Jonah: flesh and blood has not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say unto thee also, that you are Cephas, and on this rock will I build my Church; and the gates of hades shall not prevail against it" (The Diatesseron 23 [A.D. 170]). 

 

 

 

 

Tertullian

"Was anything withheld from the knowledge of Peter, who is called ‘the rock on which the Church would be built’ [Matt. 16:18] with the power of ‘loosing and binding in heaven and on earth’ [Matt. 16:19]?" (Demurrer Against the Heretics 22 [A.D. 200]). 

"[T]he Lord said to Peter, ‘On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. . . . What kind of man are you, subverting and changing what was the manifest intent of the Lord when he conferred this personally upon Peter? Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys" (Modesty 21:9–10 [A.D. 220]). 

 

The Letter of Clement to James

"Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter" (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D. 221]). 

 

The Clementine Homilies

"[Simon Peter said to Simon Magus in Rome:] ‘For you now stand in direct opposition to me, who am a firm rock, the foundation of the Church’ [Matt. 16:18]" (Clementine Homilies 17:19 [A.D. 221]). 

 

Origen

"Look at [Peter], the great foundation of the Church, that most solid of rocks, upon whom Christ built the Church [Matt. 16:18]. And what does our Lord say to him? ‘Oh you of little faith,’ he says, ‘why do you doubt?’ [Matt. 14:31]" (Homilies on Exodus 5:4 [A.D. 248]). 
 

 

 

Cyprian of Carthage

"The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven . . . ’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. . . . If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]). 

"There is one God and one Christ, and one Church, and one chair founded on Peter by the word of the Lord. It is not possible to set up another altar or for there to be another priesthood besides that one altar and that one priesthood. Whoever has gathered elsewhere is scattering" (Letters 43[40]:5 [A.D. 253]). 

"There [John 6:68–69] speaks Peter, upon whom the Church would be built, teaching in the name of the Church and showing that even if a stubborn and proud multitude withdraws because it does not wish to obey, yet the Church does not withdraw from Christ. The people joined to the priest and the flock clinging to their shepherd are the Church. You ought to know, then, that the bishop is in the Church and the Church in the bishop, and if someone is not with the bishop, he is not in the Church. They vainly flatter themselves who creep up, not having peace with the priests of God, believing that they are 
secretly [i.e., invisibly] in communion with certain individuals. For the Church, which is one and Catholic, is not split nor divided, but it is indeed united and joined by the cement of priests who adhere one to another" (ibid., 66[69]:8). 

 

Firmilian

"But what is his error . . . who does not remain on the foundation of the one Church which was founded upon the rock by Christ [Matt. 16:18], can be learned from this, which Christ said to Peter alone: ‘Whatever things you shall bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:19]" (collected in Cyprian’s Letters74[75]:16 [A.D. 253]). 
 

"[Pope] Stephen . . . boasts of the place of his episcopate, and contends that he holds the succession from Peter, on whom the foundations of the Church were laid [Matt. 16:18]. . . . [Pope] Stephen . . . announces that he holds by succession the throne of Peter" (ibid., 74[75]:17). 

 

Ephraim the Syrian

"[Jesus said:] ‘Simon, my follower, I have made you the foundation of the holy Church. I betimes called you Peter, because you will support all its buildings. You are the inspector of those who will build on earth a Church for me. If they should wish to build what is false, you, the foundation, will condemn them. You are the head of the fountain from which my teaching flows; you are the chief of my disciples’" (Homilies 4:1 [A.D. 351]). 

 

Optatus

"You cannot deny that you are aware that in the city of Rome the episcopal chair was given first to Peter; the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head—that is why he is also called Cephas [‘Rock’]—of all the apostles; the one chair in which unity is maintained by all" (The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [A.D. 367]). 

 

Ambrose of Milan

"[Christ] made answer: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church. . . . ’ Could he not, then, strengthen the faith of the man to whom, acting on his own authority, he gave the kingdom, whom he called the rock, thereby declaring him to be the foundation of the Church [Matt. 16:18]?" (The Faith 4:5 [A.D. 379]). 

"It is to Peter that he says: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church’ [Matt. 16:18]. Where Peter is, there is the Church. And where the Church is, no death is there, but life eternal" (Commentary on Twelve Psalms of David 40:30 [A.D. 389]). 

 

 

 

Pope Damasus I

"Likewise it is decreed . . . that it ought to be announced that . . . the holy Roman Church has not been placed at the forefront [of the churches] by the conciliar decisions of other churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. . . . ’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither stain nor blemish nor anything like it" (Decree of Damasus 3 [A.D. 382]). 

 

Jerome

"‘But,’ you [Jovinian] will say, ‘it was on Peter that the Church was founded’ [Matt. 16:18]. Well . . . one among the twelve is chosen to be their head in order to remove any occasion for division" (Against Jovinian 1:26 [A.D. 393]). 

"I follow no leader but Christ and join in communion with none but your blessedness [Pope Damasus I], that is, with the chair of Peter. I know that this is the rock on which the Church has been built. Whoever eats the Lamb outside this house is profane. Anyone who is not in the ark of Noah will perish when the flood prevails" (Letters 15:2 [A.D. 396]). 

 

Augustine

"If the very order of episcopal succession is to be considered, how much more surely, truly, and safely do we number them [the bishops of Rome] from Peter himself, to whom, as to one representing the whole Church, the Lord said, ‘Upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not conquer it.’ Peter was succeeded by Linus, Linus by Clement. ... In this order of succession a Donatist bishop is not to be found" (Letters 53:1:2 [A.D. 412]). 

 

 

Council of Ephesus

"Philip, the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See [Rome], said: ‘There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors’" (Acts of the Council, session 3 [A.D. 431]). 

 

Sechnall of Ireland

"Steadfast in the fear of God, and in faith immovable, upon [Patrick] as upon Peter the [Irish] church is built; and he has been allotted his apostleship by God; against him the gates of hell prevail not" (Hymn in Praise of St. Patrick 3 [A.D. 444]). 

 

Pope Leo I

"Our Lord Jesus Christ . . . has placed the principal charge on the blessed Peter, chief of all the apostles. . . . He wished him who had been received into partnership in his undivided unity to be named what he himself was, when he said: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church’ [Matt. 16:18], that the building of the eternal temple might rest on Peter’s solid rock, strengthening his Church so surely that neither could human rashness assail it nor the gates of hell prevail against it" (Letters 10:1 [A.D. 445]). 

 

Council of Chalcedon

"Wherefore the most holy and blessed Leo, archbishop of the great and elder Rome, through us, and through this present most holy synod, together with the thrice blessed and all-glorious Peter the apostle, who is the rock and foundation of the Catholic Church, and the foundation of the orthodox faith, has stripped him [Dioscorus] of the episcopate" (Acts of the Council, session 3 [A.D. 451]). 

https://www.catholic.com/tract/origins-of-peter-as-pope

 

Peter's Primacy

In another Fathers Know Best tract, Peter the Rock, we showed that the early Church Fathers recognized that Peter is the rock of whom Christ spoke when he said, "You are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church." This tract highlights some of the implications of that fact. 

Because Peter was made the foundation of the Church, there were practical implications: it gave him a special place or primacy among the apostles. As the passages below demonstrate, the early Church Fathers clearly recognized this. 

 

Clement of Alexandria

"[T]he blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute [Matt. 17:27], quickly g.asped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? ‘Behold, we have left all and have followed you’ [Matt. 19:27; Mark 10:28]" (Who Is the Rich Man That Is Saved? 21:3–5 [A.D. 200]). 

 

Tertullian

"For though you think that heaven is still shut up, remember that the Lord left the keys of it to Peter here, and through him to the Church, which keys everyone will carry with him if he has been questioned and made a confession [of faith]" (Antidote Against the Scorpion 10 [A.D. 211]). 

"[T]he Lord said to Peter, ‘On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. . . . Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys, not to the Church" (Modesty 21:9–10 [A.D. 220]). 

 

The Letter of Clement to James

"Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter, the first fruits of our Lord, the first of the apostles; to whom first the Father revealed the Son; whom the Christ, with good reason, blessed; the called, and elect" (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D. 221]). 

 

Origen

"f we were to attend carefully to the Gospels, we should also find, in relation to those things which seem to be common to Peter . . . a great difference and a preeminence in the things [Jesus] said to Peter, compared with the second class [of apostles]. For it is no small difference that Peter received the keys not of one heaven but of more, and in order that whatsoever things he binds on earth may be bound not in one heaven but in them all, as compared with the many who bind on earth and loose on earth, so that these things are bound and loosed not in [all] the heavens, as in the case of Peter, but in one only; for they do not reach so high a stage with power as Peter to bind and loose in all the heavens" (Commentary on Matthew 13:31 [A.D. 248]). 

 

Cyprian of Carthage

"The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church.’ . . . On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]). 

 

Cyril of Jerusalem

"The Lord is loving toward men, swift to pardon but slow to punish. Let no man despair of his own salvation. Peter, the first and foremost of the apostles, denied the Lord three times before a little servant girl, but he repented and wept bitterly" (Catechetical Lectures 2:19 [A.D. 350]). 

"[Simon Magus] so deceived the city of Rome that Claudius erected a statue of him. . . . While the error was extending itself, Peter and Paul arrived, a noble pair and the rulers of the Church, and they set the error aright. . . . [T]hey launched the weapon of their like-mindedness in prayer against the Magus, and struck him down to earth. It was marvelous enough, and yet no marvel at all, for Peter was there—he that carries about the keys of heaven [Matt. 16:19]" (ibid., 6:14). 

"In the power of the same Holy Spirit, Peter, both the chief of the apostles and the keeper of the keys of the kingdom of heaven, in the name of Christ healed Aeneas the paralytic at Lydda, which is now called Diospolis [Acts 9:32–34]" (ibid., 17:27). 

 

Ephraim the Syrian

"[Jesus said:] Simon, my follower, I have made you the foundation of the holy Church. I betimes called you Peter, because you will support all its buildings. You are the inspector of those who will build on Earth a Church for me. If they should wish to build what is false, you, the foundation, will condemn them. You are the head of the fountain from which my teaching flows; you are the chief of my disciples. Through you I will give drink to all peoples. Yours is that life-giving sweetness which I dispense. I have chosen you to be, as it were, the firstborn in my institution so that, as the heir, you may be executor of my treasures. I have given you the keys of my kingdom. Behold, I have given you authority over all my treasures" (Homilies 4:1 [A.D. 351]). 

 

Ambrose of Milan

"[Christ] made answer: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church. . . .’ Could he not, then, strengthen the faith of the man to whom, acting on his own authority, he gave the kingdom, whom he called the rock, thereby declaring him to be the foundation of the Church [Matt. 16:18]?" (The Faith 4:5 [A.D. 379]). 

 

Pope Damasus I

"Likewise it is decreed . . . that it ought to be announced that . . . the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven . . . ’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither stain nor blemish nor anything like it" (Decree of Damasus 3 [A.D. 382]). 

 

Jerome

"‘But,’ you [Jovinian] will say, ‘it was on Peter that the Church was founded’ [Matt. 16:18]. Well . . . one among the twelve is chosen to be their head in order to remove any occasion for division" (Against Jovinian 1:26 [A.D. 393]). 

"Simon Peter, the son of John, from the village of Bethsaida in the province of Galilee, brother of Andrew the apostle, and himself chief of the apostles, after having been bishop of the church of Antioch and having preached to the Dispersion . . . pushed on to Rome in the second year of Claudius to overthrow Simon Magus, and held the sacerdotal chair there for twenty-five years until the last, that is the fourteenth, year of Nero. At his hands he received the crown of martyrdom being nailed to the cross with his head towards the ground and his feet raised on high, asserting that he was unworthy to be crucified in the same manner as his Lord" (Lives of Illustrious Men 1 [A.D. 396]). 

 

Pope Innocent I

"In seeking the things of God . . . you have acknowledged that judgment is to be referred to us [the pope], and have shown that you know that is owed to the Apostolic See [Rome], if all of us placed in this position are to desire to follow the apostle himself [Peter] from whom the episcopate itself and the total authority of this name have emerged" (Letters 29:1 [A.D. 408]). 

 

Augustine

"Among these [apostles] Peter alone almost everywhere deserved to represent the whole Church. Because of that representation of the Church, which only he bore, he deserved to hear ‘I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven’" (Sermons 295:2 [A.D. 411]). 

"Some things are said which seem to relate especially to the apostle Peter, and yet are not clear in their meaning unless referred to the Church, which he is acknowledged to have represented in a figure on account of the primacy which he bore among the disciples. Such is ‘I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom of heaven,’ and other similar passages. In the same way, Judas represents those Jews who were Christ’s enemies" (Commentary on Psalm 108 1 [A.D. 415]). 

"Who is ignorant that the first of the apostles is the most blessed Peter?" (Commentary on John 56:1 [A.D. 416]). 

 

Council of Ephesus

"Philip, presbyter and legate of [Pope Celestine I] said: ‘We offer our thanks to the holy and venerable synod, that when the writings of our holy and blessed pope had been read to you . . . you joined yourselves to the holy head also by your holy acclamations. For your blessednesses is not ignorant that the head of the whole faith, the head of the apostles, is blessed Peter the apostle’" (Acts of the Council, session 2 [A.D. 431]). 

"Philip, the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See [Rome] said: ‘There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors’" (ibid., session 3). 

 

Pope Leo I

"Our Lord Jesus Christ . . . has placed the principal charge on the blessed Peter, chief of all the apostles, and from him as from the head wishes his gifts to flow to all the body, so that anyone who dares to secede from Peter’s solid rock may understand that he has no part or lot in the divine mystery. He wished him who had been received into partnership in his undivided unity to be named what he himself was, when he said: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church’ [Matt. 16:18], that the building of the eternal temple might rest on Peter’s solid rock, strengthening his Church so surely that neither could human rashness assail it nor the gates of hell prevail against it" (Letters 10:1 [A.D. 445). 

"Our Lord Jesus Christ . . . established the worship belonging to the divine [Christian] religion. . . . But the Lord desired that the sacrament of this gift should pertain to all the apostles in such a way that it might be found principally in the most blessed Peter, the highest of all the apostles. And he wanted his gifts to flow into the entire body from Peter himself, as if from the head, in such a way that anyone who had dared to separate himself from the solidarity of Peter would realize that he was himself no longer a sharer in the divine mystery" (ibid., 10:2–3). 

"Although bishops have a common dignity, they are not all of the same rank. Even among the most blessed apostles, though they were alike in honor, there was a certain distinction of power. All were equal in being chosen, but it was given to one to be preeminent over the others. . . . [So today through the bishops] the care of the universal Church would converge in the one See of Peter, and nothing should ever be at odds with this head" (ibid., 14:11). 

https://www.catholic.com/tract/peters-primacy

[Ведран*]

пре 26 минута, MKD13 рече

Mi nismo se odvojili, vec ste vi prekinuli opstenje sa nama. Nas "greh" je proglasavanje autokefalije, a ne odvajanje.

пре 27 минута, MKD13 рече

Mi smo svoju autokefalnost oduvek temeljili na Ohridskoj Arhiepiskopiji koja je nekanonski ukinuta

И успостављена вам је. Ето имате је сад. 

пре 29 минута, MKD13 рече

Znaci ili vi sad ne delujete kanonski, ili sam Tomos i vasa autokefalnost je pod znak pitanja.

Не рекох ли да би по теби требало укинути СПЦ јер нема краљевине.

И све ово позивање на државне и народне Цркве, нема везе са етнофилетизмом који се само нама спочитава. Мало морген.

Барт каже да даје аутокефалност Украјини , а не Цркви. А ти тражиш да када се смање границе државе да се смањи и јурисдикција. Цариград је онда требало укинути давнијех дана. 

Који циркус је ово?  Јефтин а добар. 

[Дијана.]

@Bernard, poznato mi je to, kao I pravoslavna tumacenja. Procitaj pazljivije moje pitanje, pa ces vidjeti da sazima obe perspektive. Procitaj I Avin odgovor, pazljivo...

Послато са HUAWEI SCL-L01 користећи Pouke.org мобилну апликацију

[Zayron]

Святой Амвросий

Там, где есть Петр, есть Церковь. 

Ubi Petrus ibi ecclesia, et ibi ecclesia vita eterna

Where there is Peter there is the Church, where there is the Church there is life eternal!

— St. Ambrose of Milan!!!

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Амвросий_Медиоланский