Грађански рат у Украјини

[Zayron]

Лавра је демантовала да се у манастиру налазе наоружани људи (такозвани титушки - ваљда се тако каже - тако их називају побуњеници). Јер су Кијевом (медији су то проширили), почеле да круже приче да се у манастиру скривају противници побуњеника и да одатле могу да угрозе "ослободиоце" Кијева.

Јасно је ипак да се иза тих прича крије жеља да се Кијеско-печерска Лавра отме и монаштво протера. Извештаји "ослобођених" медија су говорили да монаси хоће да опљачкају манастир и светиње (мошти многобројних светитеља и разне драгоцености), хоће да однесу у Русију. Тиме се као покушава покрасти украјински народ... 

 

Ko bi te monahe odtamo tjerao? Iz tog članka što si nam pokazao prozlazilo je da je grupa, veliko mnoštvo ili masa demonstranata tamo stajala pred Lavrom i izvikivalo u najmanju ruku parole: lavra je naša grkokatolička i slično. Kako bi inače mogli ostali znali šta hoće i ko su, da su vikali samo Lavra je naša?  Opet se iz tog ne bi znalo jesu li to pravoslavci iz UPC KP ili grkokatolici. Da bi se ta gomila demonstranata mogla jasno identifikovat kao grkokatolička onda su morali izvikivat. lavra je naša grkokatolička - kako bi se drugačije poznalo o kome se radi i šta hoće da su tamo stajali i ćutali? To sve pod uslovom da su nekakvi demonstranti tamo uopšte bili. Tamo su se imali dostavit navodno zbog tih tituški i bojuvki, sad sam provjerio o čemu se radi, tituške su plaćenici, bilo kao provokatori da izvikuju parole kakve oni trebaju, bilo kao specijalno istrenirani momci koji započinju ostale mlatit i izazivaju nerede tačno tamo gdje je neko (taj ko ih je platio i angažovao) isplanirao da budu. A bojeviki su demonstranti. Lavra u demantu jasno poriče bilo kakvu prisutnost i tituški i tih bojevika, dakle ko bi tamo mogao demonstrovat i izvikivat bilo kakve parole ako nikog takvog nije bilo, ni jednih a ni drugih, ni tituški ni bojevika? A zato je taj demant stavljen tačno ispod tog članka jer se odnosi baš na njega. Sve što u tom tamo članku piše o tim tituškama iz autobusa i bojevikima koji navodno se tamo okupljaju da bi valjda premlatili te tituške a usput oteli Lavru jer su navodno svi grkokatolici - tako nešto se NIKADA NIJE DESILO: To piše tamo u tom demantu. Ovdje izgleda mješate stalno ti Pelerski Lavru koja je doživjela pokušaj opsade ači od pripadnika tkzv. UPC KP a ne od grkokatolika dok tu počajevski niko nije pokušavao opsadit, barem ne do sada.

[Ромејац]

Кијев некад и сад

 

http://invia33.wordpress.com/2014/02/23/kijev/

 

Не брини изградиће они нови и лепши Кијев са новим и лепшим (и послушнијим) народом широм земље...

 

[Ромејац]

lijepo ti je tamo napisano da su sve to dezinformacije kojim se neko služi da Ukrajince zavadi još više, šire ih špioni, agenti, CIA, ko zna ko, specijalni informacijski rat, sutra će napisat da se na počajevsku Lavru sprema desant specijalaca jezuita parašutista da je opsade, hoćeš li tome svemu vjerovat?

 

Ko bi te monahe odtamo tjerao? Iz tog članka što si nam pokazao prozlazilo je da je grupa, veliko mnoštvo ili masa demonstranata tamo stajala pred Lavrom i izvikivalo u najmanju ruku parole: lavra je naša grkokatolička i slično. Kako bi inače mogli ostali znali šta hoće i ko su, da su vikali samo Lavra je naša?  Opet se iz tog ne bi znalo jesu li to pravoslavci iz UPC KP ili grkokatolici. Da bi se ta gomila demonstranata mogla jasno identifikovat kao grkokatolička onda su morali izvikivat. lavra je naša grkokatolička - kako bi se drugačije poznalo o kome se radi i šta hoće da su tamo stajali i ćutali? To sve pod uslovom da su nekakvi demonstranti tamo uopšte bili. Tamo su se imali dostavit zbog tih tituški i bojuvki, sad sam provjerio o čemu se radi, tituške su plaćenici, bilo kao provokatori da izvikuju parole kakve oni trebaju, bilo kao specijalno istrenirani momci koji započinju ostale mlatit i izazivaju nerede tačno tamo gdje je neko isplanirao da budu. A bojeviki su demonstranti. Lavra u demantu jasno poriče bilo kakvu priutnost i tituški i tih bojevika, dakle ko bi tamo mogao demonstrovat i izvikivat bilo kakve parole ako nikog takvog nije bilo, ni jednih a ni drugih, ni tituški ni bojevika? A zato je taj demant stavljen tačno ispod tog članka jer se odnosi na njega.

 

Брате... стварно... где ти оде...

Зар те толико погодило саопштење на званичном сајту УПЦ МП.

[Manolis]

Кијев некад и сад

 

http://invia33.wordpress.com/2014/02/23/kijev/

 

чоече, које лудило.

[Crveni Baron]

Evo sta pisu Italijani

 

Sve u svemu, bez Moskve i para iz moskve Ukrajina puca ekonomski, a ako im dignu cenu gasa i nafte koje sada dobijaju po snizenim cenama nema im spasa ...A od EU ne mogu ocekivati puno u vreme krize ...I jos sto je ekonomija Ukrajine vezana za Rusiju ... Jos dalje pisu da potez Janukovica sa prekidom saradnje sa EU je bio razuman ekonomski gledani i da Janukovic nije ni bio filirus ili filo Putin ...

[Gerhard]

20:30
Око 5.000 људи окупило се данас на Тргу независности у Кијеву, протестујући против повратка бивше премијерке Јулије Тимошенко у политику. Њен политидчки повратак није никад био међу захтевима демонстраната, већ је тражена промена целокупног система вођења земље, стоји у резолуцији усвојеној након данашњег протеста, извештава Итар-Тас.

[Zawisza]

Sad protestuju protiv Julije Timošenko

 

           

 

Imaš moj raniji tekst u kome sam pokušao da objasnim šta se dešava. Ja sam sinoć imao susret sa mojim Poljacima i svi se slažemo da će BANDEROSI zavesti fašističku diktaturu, da njima ne odgovara niko, pogotovo ne pomirljivi Kličko ili Timošenkova kojoj neće oni zaboraviti da se "ljubila" sa Rusima. Poljska je napravila veliku grešku, Kačinski je stajao na Majdanu a iza leđa mu se vijorila Banderovska zastava.  Sad kad zabrane svaka prava Poljacima, pa i na jezik neka Kačinski objasni šta je tražio na majdanu.

[Manolis]

Једва чекам да одем у братски руски Крим на море, кажу да је тамо очень красиво :Д

[Zayron]

Брате... стварно... где ти оде...

Зар те толико погодило саопштење на званичном сајту УПЦ МП.

 

To je demantovano saopštenje, ne može se tvrdit o nečem da je istina ako je to demantovano, onda je to širenje laži, nešto slično što ovdje uporno radi N.Petrović, uporno širi klevete o tom da je patrijarh Vartolomej priznao UPC KP i laži o tome da su grkokatolici pokušali opsadit prvo pečersku Lavru pa se ustanovilo da su to bili pravoslavci iz UPC KP a ne nikakvi grkokatolici a potom počajevsku Lavru gdje se ustanovilo da tamo nikog nije bilo. Vama je normalna stvar širit takve laži? Kao kad bih ja iz ničega ništa i čista mira izmislio da su pravoslavci počeli rabovat i drancovat nekakve katoličke samostane, crkve ili nadbiskupske rezidencije a da za to nemam nikakve dokaze. To je vama sve normalno? Dva sata sam prekopavao po aleteia.org i tamo je to isto N.Petrović slagao! Nikakvog takvog članka o kojem on fabuluje o navodnom upadu grkokatolika u bilo kakvu pravoslavnu Lavru tamo nema. I još neko ima obraza da me pita zašto se ljutim.

[Ромејац]

Нађох на ово на фејсу. Размишљање једног американца:

 

"President Obama is telling the Yanukovych government to respect the protesters. No violence. But how would Obama react if thousands of Tea Party members established an encampment on the Mall, burned down the DNC, occupied the Capitol and demanded he either repeal Obamacare or resign?

[Ромејац]

Demantovano saopštenje, ne može se tvrdit o nečem da je istina ako je to demantovano, onda je to širenje laži, nešto slično što ovdje uporno radi N.Petrović, uporno širi klevete o tom da je patrijarh Vartolomej priznao UPC KP i laži o tome da su grkokatolici pokišali opsadit prvo pečerski lavru a potom počajebsku lavru, vama je normalna stvar širit takve laži? kao kad bi ja iz ničega ništa izmislio da su pravoslavci počeli rabovat i drancovat nekakve katoličke samostane, crkve ili nadbiskupske rezidencije a da za to nemam dokaze. To je vama normalno?

 

Пренео сам званично саопштење. Званично! Не неке измишљотине.

Односи између православних и унијата тамо нису добри па није чудо што "у страху су велике очи"! 

[Ромејац]

Ukraine's Crisis, Not Ours

 

Richard Engel of NBC, reporting from Maidan Square in Kiev, described what he witnessed as the Feb. 19 truce collapsed.

Police began to back away from their positions in the square, said Engel. And the protesters attacked. Gunfire was exchanged and the death toll, believed to be in the dozens, is not known.

In short, the reality in Kiev is more complex than the black-and-white cartoon of Vladimir Putin vs. the freedom fighters drawn by our resident Russophobic elite.

Perspective is in order.

First, though portrayed as a tyrannical thug, Viktor Yanukovych won the presidency of Ukraine in 2010 in what international observers called a free and fair election. He may not be Marcus Aurelius, but his remains the legitimate government.

Second, high among the reasons Yanukovych chose Russia’s offer to join its custom union over the EU is that Putin put a better deal on the table.

Moscow put up $15 billion in loans and cut-rate oil and gas. The EU offered some piddling loans and credits, plus a demand for reforms in the Ukrainian economy monitored by the IMF, but no commitment to full membership in the EU.

As for the “protesters” who came to Maidan Square in November, not all came simply to protest. Many set up tents and shacks, threw up barricades, seized government buildings, burned the headquarters of the ruling party, battled police and demanded the overthrow of the regime.

How many Western countries would permit a planned putsch in their capital city?

Still, after weeks of protest, Yanukovych offered to negotiate.

He fired his prime minister and tendered the post to the leader of the opposition Arseniy Yatsenyuk. He offered to make Vitali Klitschko, the ex-heavyweight champion and the head of another opposition party, the deputy prime minister. His offer was rejected.

Yanukovych then had parliament repeal the tough laws against protests he had had enacted and delivered a full amnesty to those arrested during the months of occupation. In effect, Yanukovych offered peace and a coalition government with his opponents until new presidential elections new year.

Does that sound like an unyielding tyrant?

Why was this unacceptable? Because the protesters want Yanukovych out, new elections now, and Ukraine reoriented toward Europe.

While the opposition has every right to urge this course, is not next year’s presidential election the place to decide the future of the country? What kind of democracy is it where a democratically elected president can be forced out of office by mobs?

When Mohammed Morsi, the elected president of Egypt, was ousted in a military coup last summer, backed by huge crowds in Tahrir Square, John Kerry said the army was “restoring democracy.”

Is this the new American concept of democracy, that when an elected government makes a major decision many dislike, the people should take to the streets and shut down the capital until the president reverses course or resigns?

President Obama is telling the Yanukovych government to respect the protesters. No violence. But how would Obama react if thousands of Tea Party members established an encampment on the Mall, burned down the DNC, occupied the Capitol and demanded he either repeal Obamacare or resign?

Would Barack Obama negotiate?

Russia has accused us of meddling in Ukraine’s internal affairs.

And when we see the State Department’s Victoria Nuland in Maidan Square egging on the protesters, and hear tape of Nuland discussing with the U.S. ambassador whom we want in the next Ukrainian government, do not the Russians have a point?

Under George W. Bush, our National Endowment for Democracy helped to engineer color-coded revolutions in Serbia, Ukraine, Georgia and Kyrgyzstan, but it failed in Belarus. We have a long track record of meddling.

And was it not interference in the internal affairs of Ukraine for John McCain to fly to Kiev, go down to Maidan Square, and do his best imitation of Mario Savio in Sproul Plaza?

If the Cold War is over, why are we playing these Cold War games?

Imagine where America would be today had the neocons gotten their way and brought Georgia and Ukraine into NATO.

We would have been eyeball-to-eyeball with Russia in the South Ossetian war of 2008, and eyeball-to-eyeball today over Kiev. Yet, in neither country is there any vital U.S. interest worth risking war with Russia.

What is coming in Ukraine, however, is likely to be far worse than what we have seen up to now. For this political crisis has deepened the divide between a western Ukraine that looks to Europe, and an east whose historic, linguistic, cultural and ethnic bonds are with Mother Russia.

With reports of police and soldiers in western Ukraine defecting from the government to join the rebellion, Ukraine could be a country sliding into civil war. If so, the spillover effects could be ominous.

But, to be candid, what happens in Ukraine has always been more critical to Moscow than it has ever been to us.

As Barack Obama said of Syria, this is “somebody else’s civil war.”

[Zawisza]

Demantovano saopštenje, ne može se tvrdit o nečem da je istina ako je to demantovano, onda je to širenje laži, nešto slično što ovdje uporno radi N.Petrović, uporno širi klevete o tom da je patrijarh Vartolomej priznao UPC KP i laži o tome da su grkokatolici pokušali opsadit prvo pečerski lavru pa se istanovilo da su to bili praboslavci iz UPC KP a ne nikakvi grkokatolici a potom počajevsku lavru gdje se ustanovilo da tamo nikog nije bilo, vama je normalna stvar širit takve laži? kao kad bi ja iz ničega ništa izmislio da su pravoslavci počeli rabovat i drancovat nekakve katoličke samostane, crkve ili nadbiskupske rezidencije a da za to nemam dokaze. To je vama normalno?

 

Ušlo je njih po proceni oko 80 naoružanih osoba u lavru, ali tvrde da im je jedini cilj da je zaštite od upada ili pljačke huligana. Eee sad kako ko tumači taj ulazak, uglavnom nikoga niti ugrožavaju niti prete monasima. Treba imati u vidu da se neprocenjivo blago čuva u lavri i da monasi to ne mogu da štite. Ona je pod zaštitom UNESKa, treba videti uživo tu lepotu i doživeti taj duh sakralnosti...

[Gerhard]

Ћерка Јулије Тимошенко: Моја мајка је страдала као Шиптари у затворима Србије

http://srbinaokup.info/?p=28552

[Ромејац]

Ukraine crisis fuels secession calls in pro-Russian south

 

Thousands attend a protest in the port city of Sevastapol on Ukraine's Crimean peninsula to declare allegiance to Russia

 

Pro-Russian activists have formed local defence squads on Ukraine's Crimean peninsula Photograph: Stringer/Reuters

 

As a new regime consolidated its grip over power in Kiev on Sunday, calls for secession in the pro-Russian south of Ukraine were growing louder.

At a protest attended by thousands in the port city of Sevastopol on Ukraine's Crimean peninsula, the crowd voted to establish a parallel administration and civil defence squads.

Demonstrators waved Russian flags – there was not a Ukrainian flag to be seen – and chanted "Russia, Russia, Russia" during the gathering.

"Sevastopol is a Russian town and will always be a Russian town… we will never surrender to those fascists in Kiev," said Anatoly, who was handing out Russian flags and declined to give his surname. "The struggle is only just beginning."

The largely Russian-speaking eastern and southern regions of Ukraine have been shaken by events in the Ukrainian capital over the last week that have led to the toppling of President Viktor Yanukovych.

Nowhere in the country is a Russian heritage stronger than in Crimea. The peninsula was officially a part of Russia until 60 years ago when the Soviet leadership transferred it to Ukraine.

Even today the Kremlin retains significant influence in the popular holiday destination for wealthy Russians, and Moscow leases naval bases in Sevastopol for its Black Sea fleet.

"We are not like the Kievans, we will not give up," said Olga, a pensioner in the crowd on Sunday.

"We hoped there wouldn't be a split in the country, but if a fully Bandera regime emerges in Kiev then we will be a part of Russia," she added, using a controversial term for the opposition from the name of a nationalist leader who fought against both the Nazis and the Soviets during the Second World War.

Amid fears that the new leadership in Kiev will soon fire the local government, demonstrators elected a new city leader, Aleksei Chaly, who vowed to defend Sevastopol.

Protesters also voted to set-up self-defence squads – a fledgling militia that would mirror those established in pro-European Western Ukraine last week after Yanukovych's authority crumbled and locals ransacked police stations.

Speakers said that in a similar demonstration earlier in the day in the regional capital of Simferopol about 5,000 had joined such squads.

The response was likely to be much greater in Sevastopol where up to 200,000 people could be counted on, said Dmitry Sinichkin, president of the local branch of the Night Wolves motorbike group.

"Bloodshed is inevitable," added Sinichkin, who was dressed in black leather. The Night Wolves enjoy the patronage of Russian President Vladimir Putin and its leadership has close ties to the Russian Orthodox Church.

Speakers at the protest avoided direct calls for Russian intervention, but when the head of the city's administration said that the secession of Crimea could not be permitted he was booed from the stage.

Russian officials refrain from publicly stating their support for Crimean separatism, but Kremlin aide Sergei Glazyev described Ukraine last month as "schizophrenic" and said that Russia would support greater federalism.

In recent weeks local media have carried stories about intensive contact with Russian officials and Vladislav Surkov, the Kremlin's so-called "grey cardinal," was reportedly spotted in Crimea last week.

"Russia does not openly take part in encouraging separatism… but there are organisations which are financed through Kremlin structures," said Viktor Neganov, a local supporter of the uprising in Kiev who has just been appointed an adviser to the country's new interior minister.

Neganov suffered concussion and a bloody nose on Saturday when he was beaten by people greeting riot police returning from Kiev to Sevastopol in the wake of the fall of the Yanukovych government.

While Ukraine's riot police, or Berkut, are widely reviled by the opposition whose activists have battled them on the streets of Kiev for months, they were treated to a hero's welcome in Sevastopol, given flowers and embraced by locals.

There have been pushes for Crimean separatism several times since the fall of the Soviet Union, including during Ukraine's 2004 Orange Revolution, but analysts said that more was now at stake.

"It's easy to imagine Crimea calling a referendum and getting special status within the Ukraine," said Masha Lipman, an expert at the Carnegie Centre in Moscow. "The natural next step would be to secede."

There was little sympathy in Sevastopol for Yanukovych, who has fled Kiev and been denounced by many of his closest followers. His current whereabouts is unknown.

"I don't support Yanukovych because he has betrayed Ukraine," said Dmitry Kovalenko, 23, a student. "We need to unite with Russia."