Расправе о бесмртности душе и о свесности душе након смрти

[Justin Waters]

Nije to poenta. Poenta je to da u mozgu, koji je zbir mnogo mnogo logickih kapija, nema sta da zurokuje subjektivni dozivljaj onoga sto sam mozak proizvodi grafiku, zvuk etc. Dakle treba ti jos nesto pride sto ce u sinergiji sa mozgom uzrokovati subjektivni dozivljaj sveta i sebe.

Tada je mozak u stanju transa u kome obicno kao kod epilepsije ne bi smeo da sedi uspravno a on ne samo da sedi normalno nego i zapisuje jako komplikovane misli na papir. E sad problem je sto to nikad nije ispitivano ozbiljno i vuce se mnogo samo kroz okutlnu literaturu razno raznih auora. Ali po definicji se nikako ne uklapa u mozak= svest hipotezu i zato jeto jedna od stvari koju bi prvo trebalo ispitati a to znaci prvo "saradjivati" sa okultistima jer oni to znaju da izazvou svesno dok "obicni" genijalci tipa Dostojevski "cekaju red".

Јел имаш неку озбиљну референцу ка неком раду који се бави проблемом свијести, или аутора који се бави то тематиком, да је потребан посебан ентитет да би смо мали субјективан доживљај.

За ово друго, јел само записује, или чита исписано, а све у трансу? То би било као да неко чита затвирњних очију, јел?

[grigorije22]

Brain Waves and Consciousness

Modern neurologists have located the mind in the brain and have said that consciousness is the result of electrochemical neurological activity. There are, however, growing observations to the contrary. There is no neurophysiological research which conclusively shows that the higher levels of mind (intuition, insight, creativity, imagination, understanding, thought, reasoning, intent, decision, knowing, will, spirit, or soul) are located in brain tissue (Hunt, 1995). A resolution to the controversies surrounding the higher mind and consciousness and the mind-body problem in general may need to involve an epistemological shift to include extra-rational ways of knowing (de Quincey, 1994) and cannot be comprehended by neurochemical brain studies alone. We are in the midst of a revolution focusing on the study of consciousness (Owens, 1995). Penfield, an eminent contemporary neurophysiologist, found that the human mind continued to work in spite of the brain’s reduced activity under anesthesia. Brain waves were nearly absent while the mind was just as active as in the waking state. The only difference was in the content of the conscious experience. Following Penfield’s work, other researchers have reported awareness in comatose patients (Hunt, 1995) and there is a growing body of evidence which suggests that reduced cortical arousal while maintaining conscious awareness is possible (Fischer, 1971;West 1980; Delmonte, 1984; Goleman 1988; Jevning, Wallace, & Beidenbach, 1992; Wallace, 1986; Mavromatis, 1991). These states are variously referred to as meditative, trance, altered, hypnogogic, hypnotic, and twilight-learning states (Budzynski, 1986). Broadly defined, the various forms of altered states rest on the maintenance of conscious awareness in a physiologically reduced state of arousal marked by parasympathetic dominance (Mavromatis, 1991). Recent physiological studies of highly hypnotizable subjects and adept meditators indicate that maintaining awareness with reduced cortical arousal is indeed possible in selected individuals as a natural ability or as an acquired skill (Sabourin, Cutcomb, Crawford, & Pribram, 1993). More and more scientists are expressing doubts about the neurologists’ brain-mind model because it fails to answer so many questions about our ordinary experiences, as well as evading our mystical and spiritual ones. The scientific evidence supporting the phenomenon of remote viewing alone is sufficient to show that mind-consciousness is not a local phenomenon (McMoneagle, 1993).

If mind-consciousness is not the brain, why then does science relate states of consciousness and mental functioning to brain-wave frequencies? And how is it that audio with embedded binaural beats alters brain waves? The first question can be answered in terms of instrumentation. There is no objective way to measure mind or consciousness with an instrument. Mind-consciousness appears to be a field phenomenon which interfaces with the body and the neurological structures of the brain (Hunt, 1995). One cannot measure this field directly with current instrumentation. On the other hand, the electrical potentials of brain waves can be measured and easily quantified. Contemporary science likes things that can be measured and quantified. The problem here lies in oversimplification of the observations. EEG patterns measured on the cortex are the result of electroneurological activity of the brain. But the brain’s electroneurological activity is not mind-consciousness. EEG measurements then are only an indirect means of assessing the mind-consciousness interface with the neurological structures of the brain. As crude as this may seem, the EEG has been a reliable way for researchers to estimate states of consciousness based on the relative proportions of EEG frequencies. Stated another way, certain EEG patterns have been historically associated with specific states of consciousness. It is reasonable to assume, given the current EEG literature, that if a specific EEG pattern emerges it is probably accompanied by a particular state of consciousness.

As to the second question raised in the above paragraph, audio with embedded binaural beats alters the electrochemical environment of the brain. This allows mind-consciousness to have different experiences. When the brain is entrained to lower frequencies and awareness is maintained, a unique state of consciousness emerges. This state is often referred to as hypnogogia "mind awake/body asleep." Slightly higher-frequency entrainment can lead to hyper suggestive states of consciousness. Still higher-frequency EEG states are associated with alert and focused mental activity needed for the optimal performance of many tasks. Perceived reality changes depending on the state of consciousness of the perceiver (Tart, 1975). Some states of consciousness provide limited views of reality, while others provide an expanded awareness of reality. For the most part, states of consciousness change in response to the ever-changing internal environment and surrounding stimulation. For example, states of consciousness are subject to influences like drugs and circadian and ultradian rhythms (Rossi, 1986; Shannahoff-Khalsa, 1991; Webb & Dube, 1981). Specific states of consciousness can also be learned as adaptive behaviors to demanding circumstances (Green and Green, 1986).

[grigorije22]

Despite sophisticated scientific knowledge and the ability to map genes through thousands of years, there remains a mystery that will almost certainly never be solved: the brain and its relationship to consciousness. The mechanical and biological workings of the brain have been mostly defined and mapped, but how those workings relate to consciousness remains unknown. How does “awareness” really form, and what inputs are involved? You might want to believe that the five senses are the sum of the inputs. If that were so, how would you describe intuition when events are at a geographical and metaphysical distance that prohibits the use of senses?

Our Brain Makeup

Before exploring the brain and consciousness, a quick review of the brain itself is needed. The brain has approximately 100 billion cells and the vast majority are neurons. The neurons are often compared to an electrical system with impulses firing and creating a chemical that enables the impulse to travel from neuron to neuron. Triggering these neurons requires inputs of some kind, like those processed through the senses, but there is certainly more at work.

According to D. H. Pink in A Whole New Mind,

The entire set of brain cells is overlaid by the cerebral cortex, which R. Thompson, in The Brain, an Introduction to Neuroscience, says:

The previous description makes it sound like brain functioning is mostly understood, but that is not true. Researchers only understand approximately 25 percent of the brain's workings, and their approach to consciousness is primarily mechanical. That's why so much research continues to be conducted on topics like brain injuries, autism, epilepsy, posttraumatic stress disorder, and many other problems known to be connected to the brain.

Relating the Brain with Consciousness

So what is the relationship of consciousness to the brain? That's a good question, and one medical researchers have been unable to answer. J. Cornwell states in the article “A Question of Mind Over Matter”:

This new physics could be quantum biology, which will look at the brain consciousness connection from a subatomic perspective.

B. K. Min stated in an article in the journal Theoretical Biology and Medical Modelling, “The subjective experience of consciousness is central to our everyday life. However, whether such subjective experiences have neural correlates remains unsolved and open to hypothesis and investigation.”

J. Cornwell further states:

F. David Peat is a well-known physicist and writer. He explores the question of what operates independently of the brain. He points out that the brain does not explain the whole mind, though researchers studying the issue begin with the “hard problem” mentioned earlier. He writes that consciousness is not fully explained by the brain and suggests that it is possible “that the mind was present in the universe at the beginning … or that the mind is of a totally different order and makes it liaison with matter via the medium of the brain.”(F. David Peat, Talk given in Padova, October 1995, to Club of Budapest)

There is no defined connection between the brain and consciousness. That is probably why, despite years of study, researchers have been unable to agree as to where the mind begins. Does it begin in the brain? Is it just part of us as members of the universe? And how do you define what is objective versus irrational?

The brain is a highly complex biological organ. Consciousness, on the other hand, seems to transcend biology, and therefore could transcend death as we know it.

Our Brain Makeup

Before exploring the brain and consciousness, a quick review of the brain itself is needed. The brain has approximately 100 billion cells and the vast majority are neurons. The neurons are often compared to an electrical system with impulses firing and creating a chemical that enables the impulse to travel from neuron to neuron. Triggering these neurons requires inputs of some kind, like those processed through the senses, but there is certainly more at work.

According to D. H. Pink in A Whole New Mind,

The brain is divided into a left and right hemisphere. The right side can interpret inputs simultaneously, can deal with context, and can combine separate inputs into a whole. The left side interprets serial inputs, can deal with text, and is proficient at analyzing details. The brain does not fire up and shut down when needed. Both sides are continually working and trying to make sense of the world.

… makes humans what they are. Within the vast human cortex lies a critical part of the secret of human consciousness, our superb sensory capacities and sensitivities to the external world, our motor skills, our aptitudes for reasoning and imagining and above all our unique language abilities.

Most researchers agree that research progress is hampered by what they call “the hard problem.” Consciousness involves the impression of a subject gazing from a private inner world to an objective outer world: how can I encapsulate the authenticity of that outward-gazing subject by treating consciousness as an object? This “hard problem” has encouraged skeptics to declare that consciousness is an insoluble enigma. Meanwhile, the optimists press doggedly on. Some believe the search requires the discovery of a new kind of physics; some hope to make complex machines in which consciousness will simply emerge; others, such as Nobel prize-winner Francis Crick, think it will be explained, or explained away, by studying the electronic oscillation of brain cells.

There are two schools of thought concerning consciousness. One school believes that consciousness is merely a mechanical process that relies on objective structures and processes that one day can be replicated. Another school believes that consciousness is an indefinable process that relies on far more than obvious objects and sensory stimuli and is based in moral and imaginative agency leading to breakthroughs of the irrational in the form of dreams and other unrestricted emanations.

D. H. Pink, in A Whole New Mind, offers further explanation:

Carl Jung, the Swiss psychiatrist who was the founder of analytical psychology, proposed the idea of a collective unconscious. Jung explored much more than biological processes of the brain and studied both Eastern and Western philosophies and sociology. The collective unconscious mind represents humanity itself and is not personal in nature. Collective consciousness, according to Jung, is not developed … it is just within us as humans.

[Juan Valdez]

Nije to poenta. Poenta je to da u mozgu, koji je zbir mnogo mnogo logickih kapija, nema sta da uzrokuje subjektivni dozivljaj onoga sto sam mozak proizvodi grafiku, zvuk etc. Dakle treba ti jos nesto pride sto ce u sinergiji sa mozgom uzrokovati subjektivni dozivljaj sveta i sebe.

Али како се тачно дефинише тај субјективни доживљај? Не постоји чак ни консензус око тога шта је тачно свест, да не идемо даље. И како неко може знати да у мозгу нечег нема? Не можеш оборити исказ ”не постоји то ти то у мозгу”.

[Sir Oliver]

Ihaaaaa pa sta tek onda reci za govorni i pisani jezik. Ja ne znam ni jednu vrstu osim ljudi koja ima pisani i govorni jezik. Ali znam za ljudske grupe, tacnije pelemenski grupice, koje imaju religionozt u svom zivotu ali nemaju nikakav obred sahranjivanja nego stare i nemocne ostavljaju zverima.

Religioznost je relativno dobro definisan fenomen i nije uopste vezan za sahranjivanje nego na skup aktivnosti koje imaju zadatak da preobraze covekov um i da ga otvore za onostrano. To je zajednicko svima u svim epohama ljudske vrste od samanizma pa do liturgije.

ne kažem da religioznost to nije, ali obredno sahranjivanje, u položaju fetusa, sa pogledom na istok i slično su jasan pokazatelj tačne namere onih koji sahranjuju. Nisu ga zakopali samo da ne smrdi, ili ostavljanje pticama isto ali uz obredne predmete itd.

[Благовесник]

obredno sahranjivanje, u položaju fetusa, sa pogledom na istok i slično su jasan pokazatelj tačne namere onih koji sahranjuju. Nisu ga zakopali samo da ne smrdi, ili ostavljanje pticama isto ali uz obredne predmete itd.

- Evo čoveka!

Neandertalac, iako telom Svarceneger, dusom je bio duhovni Avelj.

Bio je prefinjeno i veoma duhovno bice. Posedovao je sve tri temeljne vrline:

- vera (Nebo je za njega bilo slika duhovnog sveta sa kojim je trebao da ponovo uspostavi vezu),

- nada (nada u Vaskrsenje izražena u sahranjivanju pokojnika u položaju fetusa u majčinoj utrobi,

sa pogledom na istok, mozda i imanje sačuvanog predanja u vezi iščekivanja Onoga koji je obecan Adamu i Evi!),

- ljubav (jedno drustvo se vrednuje prema tome kako se odnosi prema starima i nemocnima,

a Neandretalac je imao osobitu paznju i brigu tj. ljubav prema takvima, i bili su veoma pošteni).

Najslicniji je, dakle, biblijskom Avelju (ako ne i upravo biblijski Avelj, ako uzmemo da su to imena plemena, a da je Avelj pleme koje je bilo veoma duhovno, Bogu prinosilo krvnu zrtvu, verovalo u Vaskrsenje i Carstvo Nebesko, no ostalo bez potomaka tj. izumrlo ili unisteno od druge vrste tj. Kaina od kojeg ce nastati druga plemena poimenice, a nestala u Potopu tj. "ledenom potopu").

[Благовесник]

Da li je duša svesna nakon smrti?

Nije [19.64%]

Jeste [80.36%]

Bogu slava!

[Juan Valdez]

Da li je duša svesna nakon smrti?

Nije [19.64%]

Jeste [80.36%]

Bogu slava!

Душа прешла цензус. Не важи се, избори су покрадени!

[Justin Waters]

Ајмо направити анкету, да ли је душа свесна кад спавамо, какави би резултати били?

[ZarkoZ]

Душа прешла цензус. Не важи се, избори су покрадени!

Ukrali su i moju dusu! :D

Gde su dzakovi??? :D :PPPPP

[Благовесник]

Душа прешла цензус. Не важи се, избори су покрадени!

Hahhaa

Dobro, ko gubi ima pravo da se ljuti.

Ајмо направити анкету,

да ли је душа свесна кад спавамо, какави би резултати били?

Ajde. Dusa kad spava svesna je onoga što sanja. (sic!)

[Justin Waters]

Hahhaa

Dobro, ko gubi ima pravo da se ljuti.

Ajde. Dusa kad spava svesna je onoga što sanja. (sic!)

А кад се не сања ништа? Или кад се прими тотална анестезија?

[Благовесник]

Или кад се прими тотална анестезија?

Justinijan, ni opštom anestezijom ne možeš dušu okovati da ne sanja. Pacijenti podvrgnuti opštoj anesteziji ne samo da sanjaju, vec se nakon toga neki i secaju sta su sanjali.

( 2:0 )

[Justin Waters]

Justine, ni opštom anestezijom ne možeš dušu okovati da ne sanja. Pacijenti podvrgnuti opštoj anesteziji ne samo da sanjaju, vec se nakon toga neki i secaju sta su sanjali.

( 2:0 )

Али ајд буди искрен па признај какве то везе има са свијешћу? Свијест је способност да се реагује и перцепира на сигнале из околине.

Ти кад сањаш, не можеш самоме себи рећи гле сањам...тек кад се пробудиш, кад будеш у свјесном стању констатујеш свој сан. Дакле ти о томе шта си сањао тек можеш у будном стању да будеш свјестан. Док спаваш ти ниси свјестан свог сна.

Тако да 2:1 .

[drvce]

Shang Tsung laze! Raiden kaze: "Although your souls are protected, your lives are not." Cisto da ne bude nekih nedoumica...