Protestantska misao dana

[Bernard]

 

"It's easier to live as a Protestant but it's better to die as a Catholic" – Martin Luther

[SerbCro]

Haha, ono kad pustiš katolika da “hvali“ protestante, pa izvuče nekaj iz “ najbolje namjere.“ 

Jel to dok je Luther bio vaš ili naš ? : D

[Bernard]

пре 31 минута, SerbCro рече

Jel to dok je Luther bio vaš ili naš ? : D

To ne znam, pitaj protestante. Znaš šta je još rekao i nikad oporeko?

6 Beautiful Quotes on Mary You Won’t Believe Are From Martin Luther

                                        

Martin Luther sparked the Protestant Reformation and was critical of what he considered excesses and corruptions in the Catholic Church. But did you know he continued to hold many Catholic doctrines about Mary?

Here are some quotes from Martin Luther about the Blessed Virgin Mary that may surprise you:

1) Mary has no equal among creation

“She became the Mother of God, in which work so many and such great good things are bestowed on her as pass man’s understanding. For on this there follows all honor, all blessedness, and her unique place in the whole of mankind, among which she has no equal, namely, that she had a child by the Father in heaven, and such a Child….

“Hence men have crowded all her glory into a single word, calling her the Mother of God…. None can say of her nor announce to her greater things, even though he had as many tongues as the earth possesses flowers and blades of grass: the sky, stars; and the sea, grains of sand. It needs to be pondered in the heart what it means to be the Mother of God.” (source)

2) Mary was without sin

“God has formed the soul and body of the Virgin Mary full of the Holy Spirit, so that she is without all sins, for she has conceived and borne the Lord Jesus.” (source)

3) Mary was a perpetual virgin

“Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary’s virginal womb… This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that. […] Christ… was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him.” (source; for more see this article)

4) On the veneration of Mary

“The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart.” (source)

5) Mary is the mother of all Christians

“Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees… If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is, we ought also to be and all that he has ought to be ours, and his mother is also our mother.” (source)

6) You can never honor Mary enough

“[Mary is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ… She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures.” (source)

[Bernard]

5 Protestants Who Surprisingly Defended Mary’s Perpetual Virginity

                                            

It is a dogma of the Catholic faith that the Blessed Virgin Mary was not only a virgin when she conceived and bore Jesus but that she remained a virgin ever after. Most Protestant Christians today deny this – but do they know that many of their early leaders believed it?

Here are 5 examples of major Protestant leaders who rejected huge swaths of Catholic dogma, but – you may surprised to learn – defended the perpetual virginity of Mary:

1) Martin Luther

Martin Luther is usually considered to be the person who sparked the Protestant Reformation. He rejected core Catholic dogmas like the papacy, transubstantiation, and even parts of the traditional Bible. But he kept the doctrine of Mary’s perpetual virginity.

Here’s what he said about it in a sermon:

“Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary’s virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that. […] Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . I am inclined to agree with those who declare that ‘brothers’ really mean ‘cousins’ here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.” (Sermons on John)

2) John Calvin

John Calvin started what is now known as the Reformed theological tradition, which reject many key Catholic dogmas. Though he warned that those who take time to argue about it simply have an “extreme fondness of disputation,” he also argued that those who reject Mary’s perpetual virginity based on Scriptural passages that mention Jesus’ “brothers and sisters” show “excessive ignorance.”

3) Huldrych Zwingli

Huldrych Zwingli was a Swiss Reformer during the lifetime of Martin Luther. He not only rejected the authority of the Church, but, unlike Luther, actually went so far as to deny the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist altogether.

But on the topic of Mary’s perpetual virgin, he wrote:

“I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin.” (Zwingli Opera, Corpus Reformatorum, Berlin, 1905, v. 1, p. 424)

4) Thomas Cranmer

Thomas Cranmer was the Archbishop of Canterbury during Henry VIII’s schism from Rome and thereafter and was a major figure in building Anglicanism. Yet he and other major Anglican leaders maintained the perpetual virginity of Mary “on the basis of ancient Christian authority.”

5) John Wesley

John Wesley’s teachings and ministry led to the worldwide Methodist movement. He strongly rejected Catholicism – but the perpetual virginity of Mary wasn’t one of the things he saw as problematic.

In his Letter to a Roman Catholic, he wrote:

“I believe that He [Jesus] was made man, joining the human nature with the divine in one person; being conceived by the singular operation of the Holy Ghost, and born of the blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as before she brought Him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin.”

Blessed Mary, Ever-Virgin, please pray for us!

[SerbCro]

@Bernard,

zanimljivo doista. Nisam njihov fan, niti mislim da su oni u svemu bili u pravu. Poštivam te neke promjene koje je Luther donesel, ali to je bio samo početak reformacije, samo jedna duhovna bitka , on uostalom je jedino hteo da reformira katoličku crkvu ? Wesley— njega najviše poštivam od pomenutih, mada ni o kome od njih nznm puno. Calvina prezirem, tj ono kaj je on donesel, nauku o izabranju, a negdje sam čitao da je to pokupil od Augustina. Ako netko može to da potvrdi, bilo bi ok, ili negira. Pozdrav.

[Desiderius Erasmus]

пре 6 часа, SerbCro рече

@Bernard,

zanimljivo doista. Nisam njihov fan, niti mislim da su oni u svemu bili u pravu. Poštivam te neke promjene koje je Luther donesel, ali to je bio samo početak reformacije, samo jedna duhovna bitka , on uostalom je jedino hteo da reformira katoličku crkvu ? Wesley— njega najviše poštivam od pomenutih, mada ni o kome od njih nznm puno. Calvina prezirem, tj ono kaj je on donesel, nauku o izabranju, a negdje sam čitao da je to pokupil od Augustina. Ako netko može to da potvrdi, bilo bi ok, ili negira. Pozdrav.

U Luterovom katihizisu imaš na primer da se pre molitve treba prekrstiti. A Vesli je postio sredom i petkom.  

Cvingli je, ustvari, bio najbliži shvatanjima savremenih neoprotestanata, premda je i on krštavao decu, a i ubijao one koji nisu hteli da ih krštavaju (anabaptiste). I to davljenjem. 

A, Luter se inače radovao kad je Cvingli poginuo (u odbrani Ciriha), zato što ga je smatrao jeretikom jer je ovaj pričest nije gledao kao stvarno telo i krv Hristovu. A i Erazmo se radovao. Takvo vreme bilo.

Što se tiče Avgustina, Kalvin ga citira u "Nauku hrišćanske vere", ali stvarno ne znam u kojoj meri i kakvu predestinaciju je Avgustin naučavao.

[SerbCro]

пре 47 минута, Desiderius Erasmus рече

U Luterovom katihizisu imaš na primer da se pre molitve treba prekrstiti. A Vesli je postio sredom i petkom.  

Cvingli je, ustvari, bio najbliži shvatanjima savremenih neoprotestanata, premda je i on krštavao decu, a i ubijao one koji nisu hteli da ih krštavaju (anabaptiste). I to davljenjem. 

A, Luter se inače radovao kad je Cvingli poginuo (u odbrani Ciriha), zato što ga je smatrao jeretikom jer je ovaj pričest nije gledao kao stvarno telo i krv Hristovu. A i Erazmo se radovao. Takvo vreme bilo.

Što se tiče Avgustina, Kalvin ga citira u "Nauku hrišćanske vere", ali stvarno ne znam u kojoj meri i kakvu predestinaciju je Avgustin naučavao.

Budem uzeo sa rezervom to kaj si sve napisal, dok ne čujem i neko mišljenje "sa druge strane", obzirom da je moguće da su to napisali katolici koji su iste proganjali i ubijali, jer da su Wesley i Luther ubijali neistomišljenike, zvuči mi nemoguće, ali opet kažem, nisam proučavao njihove živote, pa čak ni kaj su točno vjerovali.

[Desiderius Erasmus]

пре 16 минута, SerbCro рече

Budem uzeo sa rezervom to kaj si sve napisal, dok ne čujem i neko mišljenje "sa druge strane", obzirom da je moguće da su to napisali katolici koji su iste proganjali i ubijali, jer da su Wesley i Luther ubijali neistomišljenike, zvuči mi nemoguće, ali opet kažem, nisam proučavao njihove živote, pa čak ni kaj su točno vjerovali.

Vesli nije ubijao, nije imao ni mogućnosti za to (on je bio disident u okviru anglikanstva). Cvingli je 100% davio anabaptiste, slobodno proveri u kojim god hoćeš izvorima. U Kalvinovoj Ženevi je vladala prava-pravcata inkvizicija, to možeš da pročitaš gde hoćeš.

Za Lutera se sa sigurnošću zna da je izjavio da "država treba javno ili tajno kao pse da pobije seljake koji su se pobunili". Njegov pomoćnik Melanhton je izjavio da je ubijanje jeretika večna Božja zapovest.

U Engleskoj su katolici proganjani i ubijani samo tako nakon reformacije.

U Americi su puritanci ubijali "veštice".

Pomiri se sa tim da protestanti i njihovi pioniri nisu sveci, nego su bili ljudi svog vremena, kada je bilo nešto najnormalnije da država ubija jeretike. Oni su sebi uzeli slobodu da veruju kako misle da treba, ali tu slobodu nisu davali svojim podanicima.  

[SerbCro]

Baš sam krenuo da ispravim to za Wesley, pa sam odustao dok si odg. To za Luthera znam da je izjavio, niti mislim da su oni bili neki sveci, a znam  i da su katolici bili proganjani. Za Kalvina sam isto čuo da je ubijao. Ja cijenim Charles G. Finney, njega smatram svojim duhovnim ocem, ali on je tek 19. stoljeće. Hvala na odgovorima.

[Tumaralo.]

пре 41 минута, Desiderius Erasmus рече

Za Lutera se sa sigurnošću zna da je izjavio da "država treba javno ili tajno kao pse da pobije seljake koji su se pobunili". Njegov pomoćnik Melanhton je izjavio da je ubijanje jeretika večna Božja zapovest.

Luter je obrazložio da su seljaci zaslužili 

http://www.historyguide.org/earlymod/peasants1525.html

[Desiderius Erasmus]

пре 13 минута, Tumaralo. рече

Luter je obrazložio da su seljaci zaslužili 

http://www.historyguide.org/earlymod/peasants1525.html

Jašta. A i katolici su smatrali da protestanti zaslužuju da budu ubivani ("jedan protestant je morao biti ubiven"). Takvo je to vreme bilo, ne možemo to da merimo današnjim aršinima.

[Bernard]

                                                         

[Bernard]

VOM KONFLIKT ZUR GEMEINSCHAFT

LUTHERISCHES BEKENNTNIS VON SÜNDEN GEGEN DIE EINHEIT

236. Auf seiner Fünften Vollversammlung in Evian 1970 hat der Lutherische Weltbund als Antwort auf eine tief bewegende Ansprache von Johannes Kardinal Willebrands erklärt, dass „wir als lutherische Christen und Gemeinden bereit sind zu sehen, wie das Urteil der Reformatoren über die Römisch-katholische Kirche und Theologie ihrer Zeit oft nicht frei war von polemischen Verzerrungen, die zum Teil bis in die Gegenwart nachwirken. Wir bedauern aufrichtig, dass unsere römisch-katholischen Brüder durch solche polemischen Darstellungen gekränkt und missverstanden worden sind. Mit Dankbarkeit erinnern wir uns an die Erklärung Papst Pauls VI. zu Beginn der zweiten Session des Zweiten Vatikanischen Konzils, in der er seine Bitte um Vergebung aussprach für alle Kränkungen, die durch die Römisch-katholische Kirche geschehen sind. Im Gebet des Herrn bitten wir zusammen mit allen Christen um Vergebung. Lasst uns deshalb darauf bedacht sein, einander aufrichtig und in Liebe zu begegnen.“82

237. Lutheraner bekannten auch ihr eigenes Fehlverhalten gegenüber anderen christlichen Traditionen. Auf seiner Elften Vollversammlung in Stuttgart 2010 erklärte der Lutherische Weltbund, dass Lutheraner „tiefes Bedauern und Schmerz über die Verfolgung der Täufer durch lutherische Obrigkeiten empfinden und besonders darüber, dass lutherische Reformatoren diese Verfolgung theologisch unterstützt haben. Deshalb will der Rat des Lutherischen Weltbunds […] öffentlich sein tiefes Bedauern und seine Betrübnis darüber zum Ausdruck bringen. Im Vertrauen auf Gott, der in Jesus Christus die Welt mit sich versöhnte, bitten wir deshalb Gott und unsere mennonitischen Schwestern und Brüder um Vergebung für das Leiden, das unsere Vorfahren im 16. Jahrhundert den Täufern zugefügt haben, für das Vergessen oder Ignorieren dieser Verfolgung in den folgenden Jahrhunderten und für alle unzutreffenden, irreführenden und verletzenden Darstellungen der Täufer und Mennoniten, die lutherische AutorInnen bis heute in wissenschaftlicher oder nichtwissenschaftlicher Form verbreitet haben.“83

 

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/lutheran-fed-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_2013_dal-conflitto-alla-comunione_ge.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

[Bernard]

Whoever does not accept my teaching may not be saved -- for it is God's teaching and not mine.

MARTIN LUTHER

Against the Spiritual Estate of the Pope and the Bishops Falsely So Called, July 1522

[Bernard]

The Mass is the greatest blasphemy of God, and the highest idolatry upon earth, an abomination the like of which has never been in Christendom since the time of the Apostles.

MARTIN LUTHER

Table Talk