Filioque

[Bokisd]

On 29.5.2019. at 22:56, Bernard рече

ST JOHN DAMASCENE AND ST THOMAS AQUINAS ON THE ETERNAL PROCESSION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT (1) 
Michael D. Torre

Procitao sam,  ,... uf, bas treba dosta concetracion jer su u pitanju delikatne stvari i finese.

Po meni, kljucne stvari,..... Sv.Jovana Damaskin jasno pise da je u sv.Trojici samo jedno nacelo i to je Otac, od koga se radja Sin i ishodi Duh i to je ono sto sam naveo na predhodnoj strani da Istok poznaje samo jedno nacelo i ovo ucenje o jednom nacelu je objasnjeno od strane vecine svetitelja i otaca crkve.

He (Toma) is ready to grant that the Spirit proceeds from the Father alone as from a first principle, but he insists that the Spirit proceeds from the Son mediately. John, however, has no articulate concept of such a mediate origin, either in relation to God's inner life or elsewhere in his work. (26) Is his theology open to this idea or not?

Pa, naravno da nije, jer ako Damaskin jasno kaze da postoji samo jedno (ako je jedno, kako moze da ima jos neko drugo) nacelo i da se posredovanje Sina u tajni postojanja Duha ne odnosi na uzrok i nacelo (ima tamo kod Damaskina opisano).

(Верујем у једног Оца који је свему почетак и узрок, који није рођен ни од кога, који је једини безузрочан и нерођен, који је свега, дакле, творац, и који је природом Отац само и једино јединородном Сину свом, Господу и Богу и Спасу нашему Исусу Христу, те производитељ Светога Духа. .... Damaskin)

Dok sa druge strane, filiouqe ima svoju pricu na Zapadu i to tek u kasnijim vekovima i postepeno se razvijalo. Meni licno, nije bas jasno to ucenje kako je  prezentovano u ovom tekstu i sam autor kaze..... If it is true, it is understandable that Byzantine theologians (and men of such stature as Vladimir Lossky) have objected to the filioque. (31) Correctly, they intuited in it a certain imbalance. Yet Catholics also have a point in being unwilling to retract it. For it does express something true, and important, even if incomplete. The way to overcome the difficulty it presents is not to go back to previous positions, but to go forward to a renewed and deeper expression of God's Mystery. We must come to a meeting of heart and mind on the Spirit, as the earlier Council did on the Son. The holy Fathers have left us with a task that is yet to be completed.....

I, meni ta prica deluje kako kaze sam autor (koji ovde u ovom tekstu ima nameru da pomiri Istok i Zapad oko filioque)....." jer ako je za Zapad filioque istinito, ali je nepotpuno, ..incomplete...(neizgradjeno kao potpuno jasan sistem ili kako navodi autor Vladimira Loskog,.... Correctly, they intuited in it a certain imbalance. ).... i zbog toga postoje poteskoce koje treba da preprode (kako bi se uskladilo ucenje Istoka i Zapada oko filiouqe.... moj citat).... koje bi autor teksta preprodio.... ne vracanjem na predhodna stajalista i pozicije  nego ka (nekom ...moj citat) obnovljenom i dubljem izrazu Bozije misterije. " (verovatno se misli na nacin na koji Bog postoji) 

U tome je i problem, filioque je nepotpuno i neizbalansirano (autor) i ako zbog toga ne zelis da se vracas na ....predhodna stajalista,... onda izmisljas neka nova stajalista i pozicije koja su razlicita od predhodnog stajalista ... sto je neprihvatljivo.

[Bernard]

Boštjan M. Turk: Sigmund Freud je eden največjih psihičnih bolnikov sodobnosti, Slavoj Žižek pa ena največjih zablod (KOLUMNA)

Psihoanaliza je sicer korelativna marksizmu, predvsem pa ga podpira v eni sami točki: marksizem je učil, da se mora človek odreči osebne identitete, da se lahko stopi v brezrazredno skupnost – in tako na oltar oblasti položi največ, kar ima, svojo individualnost in svobodo, je freudizem ponudil »psihoanalitični« temelj tega. Freud je učil, da človek ni svoboden, niti ne premore individualnosti.

https://reporter.si/clanek/slovenija/bostjan-m-turk-libido-in-laz-freud-najvecja-prevara-sodobnosti-kolumna-716337

[Панарет]

Додатак филиокве сведочи и о једном духу непослушности који је рано почео да продире у Западну цркву. Чак и када би филиокве било теолошки прихватљиво веровање, његово уношење у Символ вере је недопустиво јер је Црква забранила било какво преправљање светог текста. А тај дух непослушности није нешто бенигно, чему сведочимо до дана данашњег, када Фрањо мења текст Молитве Господње. 

[Bernard]

The Filioque Constantinople II and Common Sense Arguments Against Roman Catholicism – Examined

Craig Truglia, over at Orthodox Christian Theology, has written a brief article with some arguments which attempt to refute Roman Catholic doctrine surrounding the Papacy. I wish I had more time to offer a more in depth response to this one, but this is going to suffice for now. I have two points to show.

 

(1) Craig argues that the Popes of Rome prior to the schism condemned adding anything to the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed. He appeals to St. Leo III’s response letter to the Frankish envoys who requested him to allow filioque to be added to the creed, as well as Pope John VIII’s condemnation of any man who thought to do the same. Of course, the horos of the Council of Constantinople (879-80), which was ratified by John, and which condemned any word additions to the Creed is also brought up as a witness against the current Catholic Church which recites Filioque in the Creed.

Let’s examine the merits of this argumentation. Before I do that, I will give a more useful translation of Leo III’s letter here below as given by Fr. Aidan Nichols, O.P:

“I dare not say that what they did they did badly, since undoubtedly they omitted other matters of faith as well even though they knew them… I dare not say that they understood less of this than we do. If they thought of it, why did they omit it? Or why, having admitted it, did they prohibit anything else from being added? See how I feel towards you and your people! I shall not say that I prefer myself to the fathers. Far be it from me to count myself their equal” (PL 102:971-76; taken from Rome and the Eastern Churches, pg. 238)

It would almost seem as though Leo III is saying that the “fathers” are a higher rule than himself, the successor of Peter. Well, that is not really any new language. In fact, it is actually so recent that it comes up in the 1st Vatican Council. One of the rules imposed upon both the Pope and the Catholic Magisterium is the “moral consensus” of the Church Fathers. For example, in Session II , on the 6th of January, 1870, the Pope himself states that he is under obligation to the Church fathers:

“I, Pius, bishop of the catholic church, with firm faith believe and profess each and every article contained in the profession of faith which the holy Roman church uses, namely….I accept sacred scripture according to that sense which holy mother church held and holds, since it is her right to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the holy scriptures; nor will I ever receive and interpret them except according to the unanimous consent of the fathers”

Clearly, the very same Pope who ratified the Council which dogmatized Papal supremacy and infallibility is disavowing himself as superior to the fathers of the Church, i.e. where they are unanimous in consent. This is almost precisely what St. Vincent of Lerins gave as the norm of the true faith.

This language is also ancient. In the very formula of St. Hormisdas, which is recognized by all scholars as another document supportive of Papal supremacy and infallibility, you have the Pope putting the norm of the church fathers as a rule of the Apostolic faith. It says:

“The first condition of salvation is to keep the norm of the true faith and in no way to deviate from the established doctrine of the Fathers. …. And their truth has been proved by the course of history, for in the Apostolic See the Catholic religion has always been kept unsullied. ”

In two of the most famous texts supportive of the Papacy, we see the very language used by Leo III on the inferiority of the Popes underneath the Church fathers. But how can that be? The Pope and the bishops in the 19th century, or in the 6th century, are just as much Popes and bishops as those who were Popes and bishops in the 4th and 5th centuries where the Creed was constructed in its finality. The reference to “church fathers” , therefore, is more a reference to the true faith which traveled through the vehicle of the church fathers. They were the embodiment of the true faith when gathered together in Council. Popes cannot revise the dogmatic decrees of the bishops who preceded them, particularly when these bishops collaborated with the Pope of the time. In Leo III’s case, he seems to think that the Creed’s form itself is part of the irreformable teaching of the fathers, and this was certainly an opinion widely held. But the fact of the matter is this: there was more than one or two creeds, and the Nicene Creed (325) was different than the Creed of 381. The bishops who added and subtracted words to the Nicene Creed of 325 were not accused of claiming to be superior to the fathers of Nicaea. Surprisingly, that the bishops of 381 reformed the creed of the bishops of 325 was not always known by the Greek East. In  fact, the Greek bishops, both in the 5th-century and so far as the 15th century Council of Florence, would cite the 7th canon of Ephesus (431) as supposedly teaching that the Nicene Creed of 325 was absolutely irreformable. Of course, they mistook that to refer to the developed Creed of 381, which itself added to the creed of 325, seemingly against canon 7 of Ephesus.

That would mean bishops so far as the mid-5th century were unsettled on whether the Creed of 325 could actually be reformed or appended with additions. Research Professor of Ancient and Late Antique History, Dr. David Gwynn writes a bit of historical background on this conundrum.

“We can at least be certain that some of those at Chalcedon did refuse to adopt the 381 creed. This attitude was particularly strong in Egypt where the earlier silence of Cyril and Dioscorus concerning the Council of Constantinople and their rejection of any creed other than Nicaea remain highly influential. When Diogenes of Cyzicus in the passage quoted earlier from the first session condemned Eutyches for failing to recognize the clarification of Nicaea provided and 381, the Egyptian bishops immediately defended Eutyches and appealed to canon 7 of (Ephesus) 431, exclaiming ‘No one admits any additional or subtraction. Confirm the work of Nicaea’ (Acts I.161). The 13 Egyptian bishops in the fourth session who asked to remain outside the debates until Dioscorus, who had been condemned in the third session, was replaced likewise refer in their petition only to the creed of 325 (Acts IV.25) and omit any reference to the creative 381 as a symbol of orthodoxy. The strength of the Egyptian feeling on this question was apparently recognized by the emperor Marcian when is letter to the Monks of Alexandrian 454 (Documents after the Council 14) appeals solely to the faith of 325 and not (as in his other writings after Chalcedon) to the creeds of both 325 and 381.”  (Chalcedon in Context, the Definition of Christian Tradition, pp. 18)

As already briefly stated, the primary basis for the Greeks was this reference to the 7th canon of Ephesus (Siecienski, pg. 153) in order to refute the Latin insertion of filioque into the creed. Well, it is clear that the Council of Constantinople 381 added and subtracted to the original Nicene Creed of 325, and it was still the reformed Creed which was not accepted by everyone in the 5th century until the Council of Chalcedon. So the question really boils down to this – are canons which do not have as their object something essential to the Apostolic deposit reformable? Well, the West would answer yes, and the Council of Ephesus is a perfect example that canons can be reformed. If not this, then the creed of 381 shows that words can be added to the creed without “changing its faith”. Even if we choose the former option, canons which seek to lock away forever all reforms can be reformed by proper authority, because the same authority is what locked the creed to begin with. In that, Leo III was quite possibly wrong, technically speaking. For the “fathers” of Constantinople 381 thought it capable of adding/subtracting words to the creed of the “fathers” of Nicaea 325. Leo III would imply that adding words (i.e. filioque) to the creed would make him equal to the “fathers”, where he wishes to be inferior to them. As admirable the humility is, we should not think the “fathers” of Constantinople 381 were somehow doing something illegal in adding/subtracting words to the creed of 325. And if this is possible, then it is possible to do again in the future, for whatever reason the Church sees fit. Now, many modern Orthodox are under the impression that the 11th century Papacy unilaterally inserted the Filioque into the Creed against the consensus of that day, as well as against the consensus of the Church fathers going back. But this cannot stand under scrutiny. In the first place, the filioque doctrine was taught by many Western and Eastern fathers of the Church. Secondly, it was Western bishops who can be found adding filioque into the Creed more centuries before the 11th century in Council of Toledo, Spain. Third, it was Western bishops who sought to gain the approval of Rome to legitimize the insertion of the Filioque into the Creed in the 8th to the 9th centuries. When, therefore, we see Rome become Filioquist, it is only an act of confirming many pre-existing realities, regardless if one thinks it is legitimate or not.

 

As for the citation of John VIII, Fr Nichols also gives a more useful translation:

“We assure you concerning this issue, which has been such a scandal to the Church, that we [at Rome] not only recite the Creed [in its original form] but also condemn those foolish people who have had the presumption to act otherwise…[We condemn them] as violators of the divine words and distorters of the teachings of the Christ the Lord, and of the fathers who transmitted the holy Creed to us through the council” (pg. 246)

Scholars such as Dvornik and Hergenrother believe that this letter was forged. Whether it was authentic or not, it is extremely unlikely that the descriptions of the filioque as akin to heresy (that seems to be the idea) came from Rome. But even in the case that it was, this still does not really render the Catholic faith false since Popes are open to err in their day to day decrees. Even in documents which include ex-cathedra pronouncements, the Pope is protected from error only in the precise content which is said to be binding on the whole Church. Such a phenomena does not show up in this alleged letter of John VIII to Photius.

J.N.D. Kelly, an Anglican Patristic scholar, recognized how Rome could be diplomatic by affirming the decrees of the Council of Constantinople (879-80) which condemned all additions to the Creed while also defending the theology of the filioque:

“..the council [879-80], recognized in the East as the Eighth General Council…reaffirmed the creed of Constantinople (381), and forbade any additions to it; the Romans could assent because there was no discussion of the doctrine of the double procession of the Holy Spirit, and the creed used in Rome did not yet include the Filioque. John was statesman enough to ratify its decisions with the saving postscript that he rejected everything his legates might have agreed contrary to his instructions” (Oxford Dictionary of Popes, pg. 111)

In addition, Pope Stephen V (885), who reigned shortly after John VIII, seems to have had no problem with the doctrine of the filioque, just like Leo III. In fact, in a letter to a Slavic King Svatopluk concerning a dispute between St. Methodius and certain opponents, the Pope shares instructions that he gave to his legates who will be sent to the land of the Slavs to administer reconciliation on the matter. Although he would finally not allow any additions to the creed, he did write the following:

“The Holy Ghost is neither said to be begotten by the Father and the Son lest this imply two Fathers, nor begotten, lest this imply two Sons, but He is said to proceed. If they should say: ‘It is forbidden by the Holy Fathers to add or subtract anything from the symbol’, say: ‘The Holy Roman Church is the guardian of the holy dogmas and confirms them, because, representing the prince of the Apostles, she does not vacillate in anything concerning the catholic faith as the Lord himself said: ‘Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat. but I have prayed for thee, that thy faith may not fail; and do thou when once thou hast turned again, strengthen thy brethren’. This Church guided to the faith all erring churches and confirmed the vacillation, not by changing the holy dogmas, but by explaining them to people who did not understand them or were interpreting them wrongly” (MGH Epistle 7; taken from Byzantine Missions Among the Slavs, pg. 190)

At the very least, this confirms that there was more than one way to think about this even before the schism of 1054. Surely, it puts a clear fork in the road, however. If it is true that the Pope is the supreme arbiter on doctrine, then the Pope has the right to impose an addition to the creed. This is how all the Medieval papalists argued. However, there were many at the time who understood that while the Pope might occupy a place of primacy, he must abide by all the canons of the Church, whether doctrinal or disciplinary, and if he does not, then he can be either ignored or even disciplined himself by a synod. Well, the West went one way, and the East went the other way. In the West, the idea which won said the Pope cannot be judged by any man, except for heresy (more on that below). The East understood the Pope could be judged, or at least severed with from communion.

Of course, I am personally not happy with the manner in which the Filioque was added to the Creed, but as a Catholic, I am more bound to the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace, and this would require me to submit my thoughts and opinions to the judgments of the hierarchy of the Catholic Church. I would also add, however, that by the time Rome does insert filioque into the creed (under Pope Benedict VIII, 1014), it was followed eventually by a Ecumenical Council in Lyons (1274) where the Byzantine Emperor and the delegation of Greek bishops assented to the orthodoxy of the Filioque, and even sang it in the creed. John Bekkos, the Patriarch of Constantinople at the time, was a pro-Unionist, and was able to see through the veneer perspective that many of his fellow Greeks did, and thought he could work with Rome and filioque. The pro-unionists eventually were condemned, and the Council of Balcharnae set the standard on the matter in favor of the anti-filioquists, and therefore anti-unionists with Rome. At the Council of Florence in the 15th century, the Greeks also agreed to the doctrine and addition of filioque into the Creed, but everyone knows this acceptance was short lived, and was rejected by the Greek episcopate in the East. Whatever might be said of Rome’s adding filioque into the Creed in the 11th century, it cannot be said after the Councils of Lyons and Florence that she “unilaterally” added to the Creed, since not only were there the two councils with Greek delegates showing one voice of agreement, but also the entire Western episcopate was together with Rome (even preceding Rome in having filioque in the Creed in some sectors). And lastly, in regards to the note on the horos of Constantinople 879-80, this Council has still failed to achieve ecumenical status in the universal Orthodox church today. So while there was a chance that Greek bishops at Florence could appeal to the 7th Canon of Ephesus (431) since the latter had been accepted by the Greek church as Ecumenical, what is there to gain from appealing to the horos of Constantinople 879-80 if it is not numbered by the Greek church (nor any of the other autocephalous bodies today) as Ecumenical?

 

(2) On the matter of Vigilius. First, it should be said at the outset that Vigilius was never a heretic, and his Christology was the same at the end of his captivity in Constantinople as it was before he was taken 9 years prior. The debate was whether to openly condemn the Three Chapters document, as well as the persons who wrote them. At first, the Pope issued a Judicatum basically condemning the Three Chapters, but quickly withdrew it based upon some of the reaction of Western reaction against such an act, namely, to withdraw communion. Pope Vigilius did change his mind about the Three Chapters (a couple times). Six months after the Council completed its sessions, he ratified the decision to condemn the Three Chapters, but did not do so on the terms of the Council, but on his own authority. This we gather from his letter to the Patriarch of Constantinople, Eutychius and the 2nd Constitutum. In neither of these letters does Vigilius concede any authority to the Council.

Towards the close of his letter to Eutychios, Vigilius writes:

“But whatever was done by myself or by others in defence of the aforementioned Three Chapters we annul by the authority of our present letter” (Price, 218)

And in the 2nd Constitutum, he writes:

“Whosoever at any time believes that these [the three chapters] ought to be accepted or defended, or who tries to rescind the present condemnation, we condemn with an equal anathema” (Price, 268)

On this, Dr. Richard Price comments:

“When he [Vigilius] capitulated to imperial pressure…he is no way lessened his claims. He confirmed the decrees of the Council, but he did not confirm its authority; indeed, he made no mention of it at all. Instead he took over its decrees and issued them in his own name” (Acts of the Council of Constantinople 553, pg. 57)

Anglican historian Dr. Trevor Jalland also concurs with this:

“The Pope [Vigilius], by a singular display of ingenuity, had apparently succeeded in satisfying Justinian without actually confirming the Council” (The Church and Papacy, pg. 250

As Craig noted, the Council took into consideration the fact that the faith of the Church cannot be something decided by one single man, and that Vigilius’s non-willingness to participate in the Council was illustrative of his wrongheadedness. They cite the example of the Apostles, for example, and say that even the Apostles, though they didn’t really need each other in their work, nevertheless gathered together. What they didn’t realize is that their own Synod was missing Western representation. However much they convened on “Ecumenical” terms, this was far from the truth. Justinian knew that the West was suspicious of his condemning of the Three Chapters, and so he knew not to worry too much about their non-involvement. There is, therefore, some inconsistency in the Council’s insistence on conciliarity and collegiality when it was Vigilius who originally wanted more Bishops from the East to partake of the Council.

J.N.D. Kelly remarks on this:

“In spite of strong pressure to attend, the Pope refused, pleading the complete inadequacy of Western representation” (Oxford Dictionary of Popes, pg. 61)

Even so, there is no doubt that Vigilius was claiming to be the supreme authority in the universal Church. Price actually quotes a contemporary miaphysite, John Philoponus, who complains about the behavior of Vigilius:

“No ecclesiastical canon..has enacted that the bishop of Rome is autocrat over the whole world. The arrogance of the Romans has been manifested in our days, in the council that met at Constantinople….Vigilius of Rome had been in Constantinople for a long time and was invite to the council, but did not go to it…” (Price, 57)

For a preview of what Vigilius believed about the authority of the Roman See, a fragment of one of his letters says the following:

“To no one well or ill informed is it doubtful, that the Roman Church is the foundation and the mould of the Churches, from which no one of right belief is ignorant that all churches have derived their beginning. Since, though the election of all the Apostles was equal, yet a pre-eminence over the rest was granted to blessed Peter, whence he is also called Cephas, being the Head and Beginning of all the Apostles: and what hath gone before in the Head, must follow in the members. Wherefore the holy Roman Church, through his merit consecrated by the Lord’s voice, and established by the authority of the holy Fathers, holds the primacy over all Churches, to which as well the highest concerns of Bishops, their causes, and complaints, as the greater questions of the Church, are ever to be referred, as to the Head. For he who knows himself to be set over others, should not object to one being placed over himself. For the Church itself, which is the first, has bestowed its authority on the rest of the Churches with this condition, that they be called to a part of its solicitude, not the fullness of its power. Whence the causes of all Bishops who appeal to the Apostolic See, and the proceedings in all greater causes, are known to be reserved to that holy See; especially as in all these its decision must always be awaited: and if any Bishop attempts to resist this course, let him know he will give account to that holy See, not without engendering his own rank” (Mansi, IX, 33; taken from The See of Peter, Thomas William Allies, 110-11)

This is the standard policy of the Roman see even before Vigilius, as Fr. Alexander Schmemann wrote, and it goes so far back as Popes St. Victor I and Stephen I, and to no surprise they also withstood challenge from bishops in the West, not least the East.

In fact, when once Bishop of Constantinople, Acacius (484), was understood to have made a motion undermining the authority of the Council of Chalcedon, the Pope at the time, St. Felix III, convened a Synod in Rome and issued the following decree concerning Acacius:

“Since Acacius, after being warned by us a second time has not ceased to show contempt…by a judgment pronounced from heaven God has banished him from the episcopate… Know that thou [Acacius] art thrust forth from the episcopate, as well as from Catholic communion and the number of the faithful, condemned by the judgment of the Holy Ghost and by our apostolic authority, and never at any time to be loosed from the bonds of anathema” (JK 601; taken from The Church and Papacy, Jalland, pg. 318-19)

In reaction to this, some of the Eastern bishops complained that the Bishop of Constantinople cannot be excommunicated without a Synod. One of Pope St. Felix’s successor, Pope St. Gelasius, had the following to say to this:

“The Apostolic See has frequently had occasion, as it has been said, by ancient custom, even without any previous council, both of absolving those whom a Council had unfairly condemned and of condemning without the presence of a council those whom it ought to condemn” (ibid 325)

Another instance of this policy was stated in clear terms by Pope St. Symmachus (498-514) , celebrated as a Saint in the East on July 19th, in a letter to the bishops of the Illyrian episcopate where he urges them to take warning from the detrimental stake of Eastern churches who fell away from Chalcedon during the Acacian schism (484-519):

“For those, who believed they could disregard the admonition of the Apostolic See have deservedly suffered what is bound to befall those who forsake their duty“ (JK 763; taken from Jalland, p. 336).

In fact, this Papal policy can already be seen in Pope St. Celestine’sexcommunication of Nestorius of Constantinople, as well as Pope St. Leo the Great. Of the latter, Anglican historian Dr. Beresford Kidd writes:

“The Petrine theory , as finally put into shape by Leo, was, no doubt, held in good faith, and as the only guarantee of unity…The theory has undergone little modification since Leo’s day…but all other elements of the Leonine theory have remained and are to be found set forth by the Vatican Council [1870]” (The Roman Primacy, B.J. Kidd, pg. 152-53)

Back to Vigilius.

Regardless of all the above, the Council did end up removing Vigilius’s name from the diptychs, and so they certainly felt it within their power to discipline or excommunicate (in some sense) a reigning Pope. Interestingly enough, the Western Popes also believed they could do this when they did the same, although for the opposite reasons than the Council (i.e. the East blamed Vigilius for not condemning the Three Chapters, the West blamed Vigilius for turning around and condemning the Three Chapters). Of course, the Western churches who did this would eventually also be considered heretics and schismatics for not embracing the decisions of the Council of Constantinople (553), and only returned to the Church through letters of peace to the successors of Vigilius, all of whom claimed the the Apostolic See was on the right side the whole time. Pope Pelagius II (579-590) stressed in a letter to some of these Western bishoprics that the “faith of Peter could not be shaken (Luke 22:31-2)” and he proceeded “on the presupposition that the papal position should a priori be considered the correct one” (The Rise of the Papacy, Robert Eno, pg. 139)  Ironically, not all the Western bishops rejected Vigilius because they felt that the primacy of the Pope was a inessential to the Church’s magisterium, but rather, ironically, because it was and is. One perfect example would be the famous canonist of North Africa, Fulgentius Ferrandus (540s), who wrote vociferously against the Emperor for condemning the Three Chapters, because he thought by doing so, the Council of Chalcedon was being annulled. He wrote:

“Where would he [an accuser] go…when he had in front of him in its legates the Apostolic See itself, whose assent gave to whatever the synod defined invincible strength?….General councils, particularly those that have gained the assent of the Roman church, hold a place of authority second only to the canonical books” (Price, 117-118)

We can see, therefore, that despite the impending failure of Vigilius that bishops such as Ferrandus could foresee, he nevertheless understood that there was still a canonical rule about councils and the indispensable role that the Bishop of Rome played in making Councils final and irreformable. This perhaps shows a small glimmer of the distinction that Catholics would later flesh out in terms of ex-cathedra versus fallible mode of teaching.

We can say, in conclusion, that this would be an instance where the Pope’s authority was put on trial, and when he decided to insist on a judgment that was deemed unlawful or heretical by many bishops, they felt it unnecessary to follow him, and even felt capable of taking some motion of canonical separation. The Council of Eastern bishops, anyway, felt it within the power of the Council. Of course, Vigilius himself did not feel this way, nor did any of his successors who defended the content of the Council insofar as it condemned the Three Chapters. The sections against Vigilius no longer survive in the Latin editions of the Council , and Price argues that it was most likely deleted upon Vigilius’s obtaining agreement with the Emperor and the Bishops (Price, 104-105). But is that all we have to say about this? Absolutely not. In fact, even in and through the Medieval period (for ex: Aquinas) up unto the present day, there is still room in Catholic ecclesiology for the idea that a Pope who sets his nose like flint against the orthodox and apostolic faith can be, without being legally judged by the Church, recognized as forfeiting his own office. Cardinal Leo Burke, a canon lawyer as well as former prefect of the Supreme Tribunal of the Apostolic Signitura which, apart from the Pope himself, is  the highest judicial authority in the Catholic Church, said the following when asked if a Pope who commits to formal heresy can be recognized as forfeited from office by the Church: “If a Pope would formally profess heresy he would cease, by that act, to be the Pope. It’s automatic. And so, that could happen“. I myself have looked at the history of this point of view, and have drawn citations from pre-eminent theologians and canonists of the Church in my article [Historical Review] The Limits of Papal Authority and the Fate of a Heretical pope: An exclusive interview with +Bishop Athanasius Schneider (2nd Look). This would sound somewhat close to what the Bishops at the Council of Constantinople (553) said with respect to Vigilius: “Moreover, he made himself alien to the Catholic Church by defending the impiety of the aforesaid chapters, separating himself from your communion. Since therefore he has acted in this way, we have pronounced that his name is alien to Christians and is not to be read out in the sacred diptychs“. With all that said, the Council was wrong about Vigilius, since the latter had never supported the heresies of the men in the Three Chapters document, nor did he ever withdrawal his acceptance of the Council of Ephesus (431), nor Chalcedon (451). Therefore, while they may have felt it legitimate to make such a decision about a supposedly heretical Pope, their judgments were riddled with unfounded assumptions. Lastly, what does this all say about the doctrine of Papal Infallibility as defined by Vatican I and re-iterated by Vatican II? I would urge that neither in the situation of Leo III, John VIII, nor Vigilius, is there something which shows itself disproving or even undermining the doctrine of Papal infallibility. Leo III defended the doctrine of the Filioque, as alluded, and so his prohibition of the insertion of filioque into the creed is all that can be shown, and this has been shown to be a matter of Church law which can be reformed by legitimate authority, of which we have yet to dispute in particular. John VIII likewise ratified no Council which condemns the Filioque doctrine, but only puts a legal seal on the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed. For the Orthodox who wish to point this out ever so frequently, what does the pro-unionist Greek acceptance of Lyons (1274) and Florence (14311449)? As for Vigilius, the whole period of his captivity has to be understood as acting against his free and deliberate will. Just that aspect alone would render everything he judges in that mode shelved until further notice. If the Orthodox wish to make a big deal about the Council’s explanation of conciliarity and its removal of Vigilius from the diptychs, nothing more is to be added than what I’ve said. But in no gloss of this history is the Pope enacting a decree on faith and morals to be believed by the entire Church, and on pain of exccommunication.

https://erickybarra.org/2019/06/30/6690/

[sanja84]

On 29.5.2019. at 21:04, Bernard рече

Lepo je Željko rekao da vi Srbi ne volite da čitate, a ja mu nisam verovao........

Nego, reci ti meni kad mislite da se ugledate na braću Ruse, je l si pogledao ove procente gore koje sam objavio? 69%

Pa kad si postavio celu knjigu za lagano ćaskanje.

Filiokve je "jeres" koja je postojala i u 8 , recimo, veku i nije bilo ometanje da budemo u istoj crkvi.

Jedini razlog zašto smo u raskolu je bio i ostao gordost vašeg "patrijarha" i slepo vodstvo za njim.

[sanja84]

isto to imamo i sada. svadjaju se dve babe oko prevlasti i za narrednih 1000 godina, koliko ljudi treba da umre zbog toga. (mislim na ruse i grke)

[Bernard]

On 8.8.2019. at 13:56, sanja84 рече

Filiokve je "jeres" koja je postojala i u 8 , recimo, veku i nije bilo ometanje da budemo u istoj crkvi.

Jedini razlog zašto smo u raskolu je bio i ostao gordost vašeg "patrijarha" i slepo vodstvo za njim.

Крсташи су били монструми,а Византија није била ништа боља?

 

1.	Mt 7,3
	Kaj vendar gledaš iver v očesu svojega brata, bruna v svojem očesu pa ne opaziš?

2.	Mt 7,4
	Ali kako moreš reči svojemu bratu: ›Pústi, da vzamem iver iz tvojega očesa,‹ če imaš sam bruno v očesu?

3.	Mt 7,5
	Hinavec, odstrani najprej bruno iz svojega očesa in potem boš razločno videl odstraniti iver iz očesa svojega brata.«

 

[sanja84]

пре 2 часа, Bernard рече

Крсташи су били монструми,а Византија није била ништа боља?

 

1.	Mt 7,3
	Kaj vendar gledaš iver v očesu svojega brata, bruna v svojem očesu pa ne opaziš?

2.	Mt 7,4
	Ali kako moreš reči svojemu bratu: ›Pústi, da vzamem iver iz tvojega očesa,‹ če imaš sam bruno v očesu?

3.	Mt 7,5
	Hinavec, odstrani najprej bruno iz svojega očesa in potem boš razločno videl odstraniti iver iz očesa svojega brata.«

 

Verovatno je bio period rekla guska guski da je guska. :)

[sanja84]

Bernard, se opravicujem, nisem te hotela uzalit. Sem pozabila da vi ljudje zelo spostujete papeza. Mi nasega patrijarha ne toliko... Kot sem povedala v naslednjem sporocilu, tako je danes spet pri nas. Obstaja spor med Grki in Rusi... in zdaj smo price istega dogodka kot 1000 let nazaj. In zdaj lahko clovek vidi kolikor je to vse neumno in noro... toliko. filioque sploh ni bila pomembna rec... 

[Bernard]

The Filioque, Constantinople II, and Common Sense Arguments Against Roman Catholicism – Examined (Part 2)

                                                                               

I received some comments which said I did not directly address Craig Truglia’s 2 main points, namely, that the Creed of 381 from Constantinople 879-80’s horos is irreformable, and that the assent to the Conciliarism of the final sentence at the Council of Constantinople 553. I intend to be concentrate on these two issues more below, but my Part 1 is still essential information for the surrounding context.

(1) Creedal formulae can be reformed by legitimate authority, as evidenced by the Council of Ephesus canon 7. Catholics appeal to Papal supremacy as a source of legitimate authority. As it stands, there is a *negative* form of Papal supremacy which follows synodal and episcopal decisions, and that is particularly what happened with the Council of Lyons (1274) and Florence (1440s). The Filioquist-Creed pre-dated Roman intervention in the West, and the Popes had decided that this would remain illegal until a certain point. Were there less than charitable and/or justified means in procuring the filioque in the creed? Of course. But that does not make it illegitimate, or negligible on the part of the Church. In Canon Law tradition of the Latin West, it has been widely considered that a Pope cannot bind all of his successors to a disciplinary rule, and the Creed of 381 is just that, a disciplinary rule. So, in short, the strict lock on the creed of 381 given by the Synod of C’ple 879 has just as much authority as an Ecumenical Council, which can therefore be revised according to the same authority, i.e. an Ecumenical Council or Papal decree.

I sympathize why you would disagree with this, but I find the the reasons you have given not compelling enough to change my mind. If it is the case that Synods are to be given the respect of infallible and irreformable authority *only once they are received as Ecumenical*, then the Council of Constantinople 879 has no place of reference as an infallible source of data for the Eastern Orthodox since, as is evident, it is not in the list of universally accepted Councils. In the case that it does so obtain, it would be interested also to see what the Orthodox would say about the admissions to Papal supremacy in the Acta of that Council, and what that would say about the Greek rejection of the Petrine theory (as specified, say, at the Council of Ephesus 431 by Phillip the Papal legate) of Rome’s primacy in the 2nd-millennium.

                                                   

(2) On Vigilius’s so-called subscription to the sentence of the Synod, you wrote that the following words clearly manifest that – “But since Christ our God, who is the true light, whom the darkness comprehendeth not, hath removed all confusion from our minds, and hath so recalled peace to the whole world and to the Church, so that what things should be defined by us have been healthfully fulfilled through the revelation of the Lord and through the investigation of the truth.”. But that is not evidence in my reading. First, in the paragraph prior, Vigilius speaks about the division which occurred between himself and other bishops who surrounded him with even more Latin bishops who were in Constantinople during his time there. Thus, the “our” of your citation is likely a reference to the “our” of all of his writings, namely, the entourage of bishops that Vigilius was associated with during his exchanges with Justinian and the Council. When he says, “what needed to be defined by us has been savingly accomplished”, why could it not just as well be what he is defining in the name of the “our” in his very letter to Eutychios? In fact, nowhere in the document of the letter to Eutychios does Vigilius make a direct reference to the Council in Constantinople. Yes, there is inserted portions of its canons, but the surrounding texts gives far more the impression that Vigilius is coming to this decision along with his associates on their own. Yes, they implicitly admit the Council was right, and that he and his associates had to revise their former opinions, but this is slightly different than saying that Vigilius is giving a direct confirmation to the Sentence of the Synod. One part of the letter to Eutychios is revealing – “For all these reasons, therefore, may the whole of the universal Church recognize that we have proceeded to the contents of this our decree justly and in a way that is not open to criticism”. It sounds as though Vigilius is addressing this to the universal Church in the name of the Papal “we”.

But even aside from this, let’s go with the idea that Vigilius totally bought into the Sentence of the Synod. Let’s look at the content:

“….we recalled to his memory the great example of the Apostles and the traditions of the Fathers. For even though individual apostles abounded with the grace of the Holy Spirit so that they did not need the advice of others over what had to be transacted, yet they had no wish to decide in any other way the question that was mooted, whether the Gentiles ought to be circumcised before they met, together and each of them confirmed his statements from the testimonies of the divine Scriptures”

I don’t see how this is contradictory to the Catholic doctrine on the Papacy. As I quoted to you from the 1st Vatican Council, even the Pope vows to submit to the tradition of the fathers as they interpreted holy Scripture. Therefore, the 1st Vatican Council is not some sort of expose for Papal isolationism, or worse, Papal automation. After all, as you noted, the 1st Vatican Council was just that, a “Council”. Here the Council fathers of Constantinople note how the individual apostle had the infallible and supreme such that “they did not need the advice of others over what had to be transacted”. So is that really the case? Did they not need each other together ? Or did they? It appears the Council would concede they did not absolutely, but that, for the sake of the normal method of obtaining truth in the Church through synodality, even the Apostles met together into a Synod to arrive at the truth. How is that not only consistent, but also exemplified in not just the Council of Trent, Vatican I, and Vatican II, but also in the ex-cathedra decrees on the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary and her blessed Assumption? Before the latter two decrees were issued, the entire Episcopate was consulted by the Popes on the question, and it was next to a perfect unanimity that obtained agreement towards what the Pope decreed. And not just that, but also the Councils of Lyons, Florence, and even before that with the recognition of the Western tradition of the Filioque doctrine (as well as its use in the Creed), show forth that even the Filioque does not come to the table of the Church by the mechanism of Papal isolationism. I think what has you confused is this part of the Vatican Council :

“such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are irreformable of their own nature (ex sese) and not by reason of the Church’s consent”

But you have inserted a meaning into this that is not there. You are interpreting this as an enablement to Papal isolationism. However, all that is said here is that the ex-cathedra decree itself has an authority which does not derive from the consent of the Church, but has its own justification of authority directly from God. This is perfectly consistent with the following scenario. Let’s say Pope X doesn’t quite know the theology of whether Christ could “learn” in his human nature, and yet the Church is wrecked with a scandal over this question. The Pope may convene an Ecumenical Council, admit to the Council that he has not the intellect or knowledge on the matter to make a definitive decision, and would like to hear and learn from the lectureship of all the bishops and theologians attending the Council. Let’s say the Pope, after a few months of learning, comes to see a consensus among the bishops and the tradition of the Church on the subject, and says, “Ok, I have now learned the truth, and I am ready to proceed with an ex-cathedra decree”, the authority of this decree would not derive from the authority of the theologians or the Bishops who lectured in the Council. It would derive from Papal authority alone, even though the Pope himself would never have known the content of the truth unless he deliberated with the Church to learn the matter himself. This is all that the decree on Papal Infallibility is saying. Therefore, your critique is not to the decree on Papal Infallibility, but to another and separate question, namely, can the Pope arrive at the truth of the faith all by himself before he issues a decree on xyz matter? This question actually came up in Bishop Gasser’s relatio at the Council of Vatican (1870), and the bishops and Pope decided that this question would not be dealt with in the Council, but the relatio did say that the Pope has to submit to the apostolic deposit as known and taught in the whole Church in order for himself to know the truth. Therefore, we have two different realities here. The first is (1) how does the truth get known, and (2) by what authority grounds papal decrees. You conflated the two, and this is why you saw the Sentence of the Synod in Constantinople as clashing with Papal infallibility. But let’s continue with what else the Sentence says.

“According it was in common that they all pronounced judgement on the mater, writing to the Gentiles and stating in a declaration that ‘when we all assembled together it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us, to impose no other burden on you except these necessary things…….”

This is a statement of fact, and in no way directly contradicting anything about the Papacy.

“The holy fathers also who convened at various times in the holy four councils followed the ancient precedent and decreed in common on the heresies and problems that had arisen, since it is certain that it is through joint examination, when there is expounded what needs to be discussed on both sides, that the light of truth dispels the darkness of lies”

Again, this is a question of how the truth gets arrived at. The decrees of Vatican I never denied the need of the Pope’s collaboration with the Church in order to arrive at the truth. The issue of the decree on Papal infallibility is that when a Pope does conduct an ex-cathedra teaching, that judgement, no matter how reliant on the common deliberation of the universal church, does not derive its authority from the common deliberation of the universal church.

“For neither its it permissible in the case of the faith for anyone to anticipate the judgment of the Church in her totality, since each person needs the help of his neighbor……”

Again, this is a question of how one arrives at the truth. Is the Council of Bishops in Constantinople saying that it is a *strict* and *absolute* necessity for there to be a consensual meeting before issuing infallible teachings unto the universal Church? I think the bishops would have said, no, since they already said the apostles did not, strictly speaking, need the other before they made transactions, but nevertheless this is the normal rule of the Church. There are some rare exceptions that the Orthodox would even allow, for example, St. Athanasius or Mark Eugenicos of Ephesus. In fact, in the 1st/2nd Council of 861 in Constantinople,

In the relation of Bishop Gasser, which set the standard for the proceedings at Vatican I, says the following in this manner, and I think it sufficiently aligns with the spirit of thought in the Council of Constantinople:

“But the issue is pressed by saying (and this is the third axiom): the consent of the Churches is a rule of faith which even the Pope ought to follow, and therefore he should consult those who rule the Churches before he makes a definition in order that he may be certain about the consent of the Churches.  I reply.  The matter has come to its extreme point and we must accurately distinguish between true and false lest we suffer shipwreck in port.  It is true that the Pope in his definitions “ex cathedra” has the same sources (“fontes”) which the Church has, viz., Scripture and tradition.  It is true that the consent of the present preaching of the whole magisterium of the Church, united with its head, is a rule of faith even for pontifical definitions.  But from all that it can in no way be deduced that there is a strict and absolute necessity of seeking that consent from the rulers of the Churches or from the bishops.  I say this because this consent is very frequently able to be deduced from the clear and manifest testimonies of Sacred Scripture, from the consent of antiquity, that is, of the Holy Fathers, from the opinion of theologians and from other private means, all of which suffice for full information about the fact of the Church’s consent.”

https://erickybarra.org/2019/07/01/the-filioque-constantinople-ii-and-common-sense-arguments-against-roman-catholicism-examined-part-2/

[Hadzi Vladimir Petrovic]

Потопи нас текстом, јеси ли ти протестант или католик....

Ми говоримо о унутартроичним односима, а ако се поставимо као да из Бога гледамо то је скоро равно хули, ми на овај проблем - као и на сваки други - гледамо из Цркве (ако смо уопште у Њој) односно из Сина у којем је створен и свјет и циљ нам је и да нам расправа буде логосна или бар логична.

То би била отприлике наша адреса у односу на свету Тројицу, што би дало за почетак бар то да су Њихове службе - мјеста- различита у Цркви.

Владика Данило је сликовито Говорио о двије руке Бога Оца у свјету...

Institucija i blagodat Hadzi Vladimir Petrović

WWW.GINEKOLOG.BA

Пошто је дакле за једина реална перспектива еклиосолашка мислим да на том нивоу треба разматрати ствари: Сабрање - епископа, дарове - харизме....

Ту видимо да је Римска Црква пирамидална структура па чак и империја, што омогућује њена телогија (тријадологија), Христос пак у својој историјској појави не личи баш на неког ко управља империјом - прије је супротност тога. А те пирамидалне структуре се лако праве и није потребно чудо да се формирају.

Свети Дух је тај који опет и опет формира Цркву као феномен и дише гдје хоће, зато дарови у Цркви не зависе искључиво од христолошке структуре (коју РЦ има), него Црква Дхом дише и пулсира.

Примјер: Да Дух и од Сина излази, редовно би Епископи били харизматчни теолози, пјесници, али не они могу да буду и туте-муте. Тако филиокве је суштина клирикализма који је једнодимензионалан и гуши дарове унутар заједнице - филозофски онтологија сујете.

Јеванђелски; Ти си Камен на коме ћу сазидати цркву - Ти си Сотона јер не мислиш Божије него људско. Хришћанин, свештеник, епископ, папа, је сотона када је лишен "божанског" додаћу Духа. То је динамика - живот, кад сву пнеуматологију премјестиш у христологију, ње нема, а нема ни потребе за њом, добијаш љуштуру.

Какав је смисао људске егзистенције под таквим ауторитетом, може ли ту човјек да се афирмише и да запјева, као равноначално са браћом својом.

Дух Свети ето мора кроз Христа Папу да се раздаје? Који будући да њему нон стоп почива не може ни да грјеши, а остали хришћани вазда доњи.

Други примјер и први епископ Римски Павле , по чудесном предзнању Божијем, да ли је уопште рукоположен? Ко је њега призвао у вјеру - визија? Дух Свети је донио Христа. Зашто да му вјерујемо, зашто да вјерујемо Петру који је сотона?

Е то је та динамика - сарадња, Духа Светог и Христа и нас у Приношењу нас,Оцу. Али свао може и да одбије сарадњу - па и Папа.

Гдје нема пнеоматологије нема ни христологије и обрнуто, и није ствар само у једном додатку, него све се мјења, благодат, еклисиологија, антропологија...

[Hadzi Vladimir Petrovic]

пре 14 минута, Hadzi Vladimir Petrovic рече

Потопи нас текстом, јеси ли ти протестант или католик....

Ми говоримо о унутартроичним односима, а ако се поставимо као да из Бога гледамо то је скоро равно хули, ми на овај проблем - као и на сваки други - гледамо из Цркве (ако смо уопште у Њој) односно из Сина у којем је створен и свјет и циљ нам је и да нам расправа буде логосна или бар логична.

То би била отприлике наша адреса у односу на свету Тројицу, што би дало за почетак бар то да су Њихове службе - мјеста- различита у Цркви.

Владика Данило је сликовито Говорио о двије руке Бога Оца у свјету...

Institucija i blagodat Hadzi Vladimir Petrović

WWW.GINEKOLOG.BA

Пошто је дакле за једина реална перспектива еклиосолашка мислим да на том нивоу треба разматрати ствари: Сабрање - епископа, дарове - харизме....

Ту видимо да је Римска Црква пирамидална структура па чак и империја, што омогућује њена телогија (тријадологија), Христос пак у својој историјској појави не личи баш на неког ко управља империјом - прије је супротност тога. А те пирамидалне структуре се лако праве и није потребно чудо да се формирају.

Свети Дух је тај који опет и опет формира Цркву као феномен и дише гдје хоће, зато дарови у Цркви не зависе искључиво од христолошке структуре (коју РЦ има), него Црква Дхом дише и пулсира.

Примјер: Да Дух и од Сина излази, редовно би Епископи били харизматчни теолози, пјесници, али не они могу да буду и туте-муте. Тако филиокве је суштина клирикализма који је једнодимензионалан и гуши дарове унутар заједнице - филозофски онтологија сујете.

Јеванђелски; Ти си Камен на коме ћу сазидати цркву - Ти си Сотона јер не мислиш Божије него људско. Хришћанин, свештеник, епископ, папа, је сотона када је лишен "божанског" додаћу Духа. То је динамика - живот, кад сву пнеуматологију премјестиш у христологију, ње нема, а нема ни потребе за њом, добијаш љуштуру.

Какав је смисао људске егзистенције под таквим ауторитетом, може ли ту човјек да се афирмише и да запјева,  равноначално са браћом својом.

Дух Свети ето мора кроз Христа Папу да се раздаје? Који будући да њему нон стоп почива не може ни да грјеши, а остали хришћани вазда доњи.

Други примјер и први епископ Римски Павле , по чудесном предзнању Божијем, да ли је уопште рукоположен? Ко је њега призвао у вјеру - визија? Дух Свети је донио Христа. Зашто да му вјерујемо, зашто да вјерујемо Петру који је сотона?

Е то је та динамика - сарадња, Духа Светог и Христа и нас у Приношењу нас,Оцу. Али свао може и да одбије сарадњу - па и Папа.

Гдје нема пнеоматологије нема ни христологије и обрнуто, и није ствар само у једном додатку, него све се мјења, благодат, еклисиологија, антропологија...

 

[Bernard]

The Filioque in Eastern Orthodox Saints of the West (350-680 A.D.)

                                                           

St. Hilary of Poitiers (+350, Feast Day Jan. 13th) writes:
“Nor will I infringe upon any one’s liberty of thought in this matter, whether they may regard the Paraclete Spirit as coming from the Father or from the Son [utrum ex Patre an ex Filio Spiritum paracletum putent esse]. The Lord has left nothing uncertain…Consequently, He receives [accipit] from the Son who has been sent by Him and proceeds from the Father [A Filio igitur accipit qui et ab eo mittitur et a Patre procedit]….The Spirit of truth proceeds from the Father, but He is sent by the son from the Father [A Patre enim procedit Spiritus veritatis, sed a Filio a Patre mittitur]” (De Trinitate 8.20). Now, some readers might immediately say that the sending of the Spirit from the Son is an economic procession in the world towards creation. Not only is this fine distinction not present in the quote just provided, but serious reasons exist to not even both speculating. In the very same Book and Chapter of the above citation, St. Hilary says that the procession of the Spirit from the Father is the same as proceeding from the Son. He writes: “Now I ask whether to receive from the Son is the same thing as to proceed from the Father. But if one believes that there is a difference between receiving from the Son and proceeding from the Father, surely to receive from the Son and to receive from the Father will be regarded as one and the same thing. For our Lord Himself says, Because He shall receive of Mine and shall declare it unto you. All things whatsoever the Father has are Mine: therefore said I, He shall receive of Mine and shall declare it unto you. That which He will receive—whether it will be power, or excellence, or teaching—the Son has said must be received from Him, and again He indicates that this same thing must be received from the Father. For when He says that all things whatsoever the Father has are His, and that for this cause He declared that it must be received from His own, He teaches also that what is received from the Father is yet received from Himself, because all things that the Father has are His”. (On the Holy Spirit 8.20, [PL 10:250C-251A])

Pope St. Damasus I (+384 – Feast Day Dec. 11th): The text to be cited is probably from the word of a Roman synod anywhere within the years 377 to 380. Some scholars attribute it directly to Pope Damasus. Other scholars have said it was the word of a Synod, though accepted by Pope Damasus. In either case, it means the same for the purpose here. The Synod, or, if it was solely Damasus, then it was Damasus, was responding to the heresy which said the Spirit Himself was a creature. It states: “We believe…in the Holy Spirit, not begotten nor unbegotten, not created nor made, but proceeding from the Father and the Son, always co-eternal with the Father and the Son” (The Filioque: History of a Doctrinal Controversy, A. Edward Siecienski, pp. 56-57). Now, in the Synod of Rome 382, which issued either the whole or the first three chapters of a text often referred to as the Decretum Gelasianum (Explanatio Fidei), a clear testimony to the Filioque doctrine is found. Now, if we ascribe it to St. Damasus or to St. Gelasius, it is to no less a venerated Saint in the contemporary Eastern Orthodox community. The text says: “The Holy Spirit is not only the Spirit of the Father, or not only the Spirit of the Son, but the SPirit of the Father and the Son. For it is written, ‘If anyone loves the world, the Spirit of the Father is not in him’ (1 John 2:15). Likewise, it is written, ‘If anyone, however, does not have the Spirit of Christ, He is none of His (Romans 8:9)’. When the Father and the Son are mentioned in this way, the Holy Spirit is understood, of whom the Son Himself says in the Gospel, that the Holy Spirit ‘proceedeth from the Father (John 15:26)’ and ‘He shall receive of mine and shall annuonce it to you (John 16:14)'” (Patrologia Latina 13.374)

St. Augustine of Hippo (+354-430, Feast Day June 18th ): “If that which is given has for its principle the one by whom it is given, because it did not receive from anywhere else that which proceeds from the giver, then it must be confessed that the Father and the Son are the principle of the Holy Spirit, not two principles, but just as the Father and the Son are one God . . . relative to the Holy Spirit, they are one principle” (The Trinity 5:14:15 [A.D. 408]).

St. Leo the Great (+450, Feast Day Feb 18th) : “And so under the first head is shown what unholy views they hold about the Divine Trinity: they affirm that the person of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost is one and the same, as if the same God were named now Father, now Son, and now Holy Ghost: and as if He who begat were not one, He who was begotten another, and He who proceeded from both yet another”” (Letter XV, section II)

St. Eucherios of Lyons (+AD 454 – Feast Day Nov. 16) , writes: “The Holy Spirit is neither begotten or unbegotten, but rather is He who proceeds from the Father and the Son, as a harmony, we may say, of Both” (Spiritus Sanctus nece genitus nec ingentius …. sed potius qui ex Patre et Filio procedat, velut quaedam patris filioque concordia). Migne 1.774

St. Faustus, Bishop of Riez (+485 – Feast Day September 28), writes:
“The fact that he has a name to Him proves that he is the Third Person, beside the two Firsts ; their unity of majesty shows that it proceeds from God and that ” third ” in the enumeration does not mean an inferiority of rank. Indeed, proceeding from the inmost of God is to be of its substance, not its creature. Do not try to penetrate how he is God, the one of whom it is manifest that he is God. Here the reason is silent, the truth is manifested. Why ask how is the union and equality between the King and the one of which it is proven that it is of royal nature and honored as such? It is superfluous to seek out the name when there is no doubt of its Greatness. Thus the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, according to these words:Who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him ( Ro 8: 9). And these: He breathed on them and said to them: ” Receive the Holy Spirit ( Jn 20:22 )……..If you want to know what is the difference between the one born and the one that proceeds, it naturally depends on the first being the only Son (of the Father) while the second derives its origin from the Father and the Son” (A Book “From the Holy Spirit” which is in french at this link, but can be translated. Author of translation approved the text – On the Holy Spirit)

St. Gennadius of Massilius (+495) writes:
““We believe that there is One God, Father, Son and Holy Ghost: Father, because He hath a Son; Son, because He hath a Father; Holy Ghost, because He is from [ex] the Father and the Son. The Father then is the Beginning [Principium] of Deity, Who as He never was not God, so also was He
never not Father: from Whom the Son was Begotten; from [a] Whom the Holy Ghost was not Begotten, because He is not Son; nor Unbegotten, because He is not Father; nor made, because He is not from [ex] nothing, but from [ex] God the Father and God the Son God proceeding” (Migne 58, 980)

St. Julianus Pomerius, presbyter of Arles (+498, influenced by St. Diadochos of Photiki) writes:
“..the faithful committed to our charge ought to be taught concerning the Holy Spirit that He proceeds from the Father and the Son, and therefore cannot be said to be either generate or ingenerate” (Patrologia Latina 59. 432)

St. Avitus of Vienne (+523 – Feast Day Feb 5th), writes:
“We for our part affirm that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son..it is the property of the Holy Spirit to proceed from the Father and the Son” (Migne 59.385-6)

St. Boethius (+524, Feast Day Oct. 23) writes:
“We shall admit that God the Son proceeded from God the Father and the Holy Ghost from both [et ex utrisque Spiritum Sanctum]…But since the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and since there are in God no points of difference distinguishing Him from God, He differs from none of the others” (De Trinitate 5; Eng. Trans.: Boethius, The Theological Tractates, trans. H.F. Stewart and E.K. Rand, Loeb Classical Library [New York: Putnam and Sons, 1926], 27,29)

St. Fulgentius of Ruspe (+526 – Feast Day Jan. 3rd) writes:
“Believe most firmly , and never doubt, that the same Holy Spirit, the One Spirit of the Father and the Son, proceeds from the Father and the Son. That He proceeds also from the Son is supported by the teaching both of Prophets and Apostles” (De Fide 11, Patrologia Latina 65.695). And : “The Father is begotten of none; the Son is begotten of the Father; the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son” (De Trinitate 2, Migne 499). And: “The Holy Spirit is wholly the Father’s and wholly the Son’s, because He is by nature the One Spirit of the Father and the Son; for which cause He proceeds wholly from the Father and the Son, and abides wholly in the Father and the Son; for He so abides as to proceed, and so proceeds as to abide” (Epistle 14, Migne 418)

St. Isidore of Seville (+600 – Feast Day April 4th) writes:
“The Holy Spirit is called God because He prpoceeds from the Father and the Son and has their essence…There is, however, this difference between the generation of the Son and the procession of the Spirit, that the Son is begotten of One, but the Spirit proceeds from both” (Patrologia Latina 82.268)

Pope St. Gregory Dialogus (+604, Feast Day March 12) writes:
“We can also understand His [i.e. the Son’s] being sent in terms of His divine nature. The Son is said to be sent from the Father from the fact that He is begotten of the Father. The Son relates that He sends the Holy Spirit… The sending of the Spirit is that procession by which it proceeds from the Father and the Son. Accordingly, as the Spirit is said to be sent because it proceeds, so too it is not inappropriate to say that the Son is sent because He is begotten” (Homiliarium in Evangelia Libri Duo 2.26 (Eng. Trans. Gregory the Great, Forty Gospel Homilies, trans. Dom David Hurst [Kalamazoo, Mich.:Cistercian Publications, 1990], page 202)).

St. Maximos the Confessor, +650 AD) “Those of the Queen of cities (Constantinople) have attacked the synodic letter of the present very holy Pope not in the case of all the chapters that he has written in it, but only in the case of two of them. One relates to the theology of the Trinity and, according to them, says: ‘The Holy Spirit also has his ekporeusis (ekporeuesthai) from the Son’. The other deals with the divine incarnation. With regard to the first matter, they (the Romans) have produced unanimous evidence of the Latin fathers, and also of Cyril of Alexandria, from the study he made of the gospel of St. John. On the basis of these texts, they have shwon that they have not made the Son the cause (aitian) of the Spirit — they know in fact that the Father is the only cause of the Son and the Spirit, the one by begetting and the other by ekporeusis (procession) — but that they have manifested the procession through him (to dia autou proienai) and have thus shown the unity and identity of the essence…. ” (Letter to Marinus – PG 91, 136)

St. Theodore of Canterbury (+A.D. 680) : “‘And we glorify our Lord Jesus Christ as they glorified Him, adding nothing, taking away nothing: and we anathematize in heart and word whom they anathematized: we receive whom they received: glorifying God the Father without beginning, and His Only-begotten Son, Begotten of the Father before all ages: and the Holy Ghost, proceeding from the Father and the Son, ineffably; as those holy Apostles, and prophets, and doctors, whom we above commemorated, have preached‘” (Council of Hatfield, 680 AD).

https://erickybarra.org/2017/10/14/filioque-in-the-west/

[Bernard]

The Second Council of Lyon was the fourteenth ecumenical council of the Catholic Church, convoked on 31 March 1272 and convened in Lyon, Kingdom of Arles (in modern France), in 1274.^[1] Pope Gregory X presided over the council, called to act on a pledge by Byzantine emperor Michael VIII to reunite the Eastern church with the West.^[2] The council was attended by about 300 bishops, 60 abbots^[3] and more than a thousand prelates or their procurators, among whom were the representatives of the universities. Due to the great number of attendees, those who had come to Lyon without being specifically summoned were given "leave to depart with the blessing of God" and of the Pope. Among others who attended the council were James I of Aragon, the ambassador of the Emperor Michael VIII Palaiologos with members of the Greek clergy and the ambassadors of Abaqa Khan of the Ilkhanate. Thomas Aquinas had been summoned to the council, but died en route at Fossanova Abbey. Bonaventure was present at the first four sessions, but died at Lyon on 15 July 1274. As at the First Council of Lyon, Thomas Cantilupe was an English attender and a papal chaplain.^[4]

In addition to Aragon, which James represented in person, representatives of the kings of Germany, England, Scotland, France, the Spains and Sicily^[5] were present, with procurators also representing the kingdoms of Norway, Sweden, Hungary, Bohemia, the "realm of Dacia" and the duchy of Poland. In the procedures to be observed in the council, for the first time the nations appeared as represented elements in an ecclesiastical council, as they had already become represented in the governing of medieval universities. This innovation marks a stepping-stone towards the acknowledgment of coherent ideas of nationhood, which were in the process of creating the European nation-states.

The main topics discussed at the council were the conquest of the Holy Land and the union of the Eastern and Western Churches. The first session took place on 7 May 1274 and was followed by five additional sessions on 18 May 1274, 4 or 7 June 1274, 6 July 1274, 16 July 1274, and 17 July 1274. By the end of the council, 31 constitutions were promulgated. In the second session, the fathers approved the decree Zelus fidei, which contained no juridical statutes but rather summed up constitutions about the perils of the Holy Land, the means for paying for a proposed crusade, the excommunication of pirates and corsairs and those who protected them or traded with them, a declaration of peace among Christians, a grant of an indulgence for those willing to go on crusade, restoration of communion with the Greeks, and the definition of the order and procedure to be observed in the council.

The Greeks conceded on the issue of the Filioque (two words added to the Nicene Creed), and union was proclaimed, but the union was later repudiated by Andronicus II,^[2] heir to Michael VIII. The council also recognized Rudolf I as Holy Roman Emperor, ending the interregnum.^[2]

 

^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Council_of_Lyon}

^{Je l' vidite kako je to ide kod Grka - sad ga vidiš, sad ga ne vidiš. Tako je i sa autokefalijama. Sad je vidiš, sad je ne vidiš.......}