Еволуција???

[Aquilius Cratus]

Cinizam postoji u mnogo oblika i ovo sto ti sad radis hvatajuci se da za jedan konkretan koji sam ja upotrebio jeste sitnicarenje u potrazi za iskljucivoscu... nauka je iskljuciva, ljudi ne moraju biti 0102_laugh

Tacno je da ljudi nemoraju a budu iskljucivi ali bi trebalo da teze ka tome da budu dosledni. A u ovom slucaju ti

si radio nesto suprotno od toga. Mozda nisi to radio svesno ali ipak jesi.

Ja tebe ne razumem sad... upravo je moja poenta u tome da je to "urbana legenda" ili "mit" koji ozbiljni ljudi smatraju smesnim i zaostalim... vernici s druge strane u to veruju... ja nisam pricao o ozbiljnim ljudima nego o vernicima...

tako da kritiku kako je gornja recenica "urbana legenda", treba uputiti na vernicku adresu... nema na cemu 0102_laugh

Poenta je da vernik!=kreacionista/ID-ovac. Tako da ipak treba urbanu legendu uputiri na ateisticku adresu.

haha... vec mi je smorno da slusam vernike kako impotentno pokusavaju da religiju i nauku smeste u isti "pomirljivi" kos... OK ako religija i nauka nisu u sukobu onda znaci da svi prihvatamo TE?

Nauka i religija nikako nemogu u isti "pomirljivi" kos kao sto vajarstvo i kulinarstvo nemogu u isti pomirljivi kos.

One se bave nakim sasvim razlicitim stvarima koje ako se shvate pravilno nemogu da budu u koaliziji.

U stvari TE je jedina terija za koju se vernici toliko hvatajju samo zbog toga sto postoji mikronska verovatnoca da mozda stvarno nije tacna... Sto se neko ne hvata za Ajnstajna cije terojie relativiteta daju vrlo, "vernicki skakljive" argumente...?

Zasto?

Zato sto je teorija relativiteta bezuslovno dokazana... i vernicima ostaje samo TE koja, jadna, nema tu privilegiju da bude 100% dosledna... za sad slava3

To bi i ja voleo da znam. To uvek i postavljam kao pitanje kreacionistima. Ali izgleda da je teorija relativiteta nedovoljno masonska. 0102_laugh

[cloudking]

To bi i ja voleo da znam. To uvek i postavljam kao pitanje kreacionistima. Ali izgleda da je teorija relativiteta nedovoljno masonska. 0102_laugh

Jok more... samo je tako cvrsto i nedvosmisleno dokazana da nema mesta za vernicke demagogije... 0102_laugh

[Aquilius Cratus]

To bi i ja voleo da znam. To uvek i postavljam kao pitanje kreacionistima. Ali izgleda da je teorija relativiteta nedovoljno masonska. smiley-dance007

Jok more... samo je tako cvrsto i nedvosmisleno dokazana da nema mesta za vernicke demagogije... :291291291:

  A to znas da je TE u svakom pogledu, epirijski, teorijski mnogo bolje dokumentovana od bilo koje druge?

[cloudking]

To bi i ja voleo da znam. To uvek i postavljam kao pitanje kreacionistima. Ali izgleda da je teorija relativiteta nedovoljno masonska. kolce

Jok more... samo je tako cvrsto i nedvosmisleno dokazana da nema mesta za vernicke demagogije... 29dz8zk

  A to znas da je TE u svakom pogledu, epirijski, teorijski mnogo bolje dokumentovana od bilo koje druge?

Hmmm... bas naprotiv... TE je jedina koja nije potpuno dokumentovana, zato se i toliko 'vataju za nju.

Teorija relativiteta je empirijski i svakako drugacije dokazana, dokumentovana ili stagod ... zato od nje i beze slava3

[Aquilius Cratus]

Hmmm... bas naprotiv... TE je jedina koja nije potpuno dokumentovana, zato se i toliko 'vataju za nju.

Teorija relativiteta je empirijski i svakako drugacije dokazana, dokumentovana ili stagod ... zato od nje i beze kolce

Empirizam se odavno ne koristi kao merilo dokazivosti u nauci.

A ako bas hoces da ides u vode empirizma eto ti toliko primera razvrstavanja(specitation) sta je to nego direktna potvrda evolucije na maloj vremenskoj skali.

Ostavimo se mi sad namerne ili slucjane neobavestenosti kreacionista.

[cloudking]

svejedno, teroja relativiteta je neoborivo dokazana... zato je niko od vernika ne uzima  u usta, jer jednostavno ne bi imali niti jednog argumenta...

[Guest Evgenik]

The actual list of errors criticized reads as follows.

Aether

A 1    The Michelson-Morley-Experiment (MME) is said to have proved the non-existence of the aether

A 2    All repetitions of the MME are said to have had the same null-result and proved the

special theory of relativity

A 3    The MME is said to have proven the constancy of the velocity of light

A 4    The MME is said to have proven the non-existence of an absolute space

A 5    A. Einstein with the special theory 1905 is said to have done away with the aether

A 6    The result of the Sagnac experiment with a rotating interferometer is denied

A 7    The reintroduction of the aether by A. Einstein is practically denied

A 8    The results of the interferometer experiments by Dayton C. Miller 1925/27 are denied

A 9     The 3-K background radiation of the universe is not interpreted in relation to special relativity

Light

B 1    The constancy of the velocity of light in vacuum is said to be a principle

B 2    All differently moving observers shall measure the same velocity of a light beam relative to

their own system

B 3    The pretended constancy of the velocity of light would need measuring the one-way velocity

which until today has not been possible

B 4    The pretended indipendence of the velocity of light from the movement of the light source would

need the existence of an aether denied by special relativity

B 5    The contention that the velocity of light is the greatest possible velocity is not proven

Space

C 1    A. Einstein negates the existence of an absolute space

C 2    The special theory negates the unity of the observer’s space

C 3     A. Einstein uses the of a “not-moving” space

C 4    In general relativity the space is said to be “curved”

Time

D 1    A. Einstein pretends time to be the position of the hands of a clock

D 2    A. Einstein negates the possibility of simultaneity between two bodies in relative motion

The Documentation

D 3    A. Einstein speaks of two simultaneities, one absolute and one relative, but can give no criteria

for the difference

D 4    For the synchronization of clocks only light is used

D 5    The relativists declare natural phenomena to be clocks which however cannot be adjusted

D 6    A. Einstein pretends time dilatation to be a real effect

D 7    The transport of atomic clocks around the world by Hafele/Keating is said the have proven time dilatation

D 8    The decay of myons is said to have proven time dilatation

D 9    Paul Langevin and A. Einstein pretend that the travelling twin returns to earth younger than his

twin brother remained on earth (twin-paradox)

Movement

E 1    A. Einstein introduces 1905 a pretended “non-moving system” without defining in relation to

which body it would be “non-moving”

E 2    In special relativity the pretended effect of length contraction and time dilatation are said to be real,

in contrast to the principle of strict reciprocity

E 3    A. Einstein uses the “rigid body” while Max v. Laue declares the rigid body as incompatible

with special relativity

E 4    In many cases the theory of special relativity does not respect its own relativity principle

E 5    The socalled Ehrenfest-Paradoxon has been disproved

E 6    The consideration of inertial systems (which are rare cases) shall give findings of universal significance

E 7    The practical realization of two inertial systems leads to consequences never discussed by the relativists

E 8    The consideration of more than the usually used two inertial systems leads to contradictions

E 9    The complete reciprocity (symmetry) between all inertial systems is required by the relativity principle

but nontheless often violated by the theory itself

E 10    The derivations of special relativity are restricted to relative parallel movements

E 11    The pretended length contraction is an adhoc hypothesis and has after 100 years never been observed

E 12    For the pretended length contraction are used the two contradictory qualifications “real” and “apparent”

E 13    In length contraction the dimensions of the relatively moving body are contracted only in direction

of the motion

E 14    With relative velocities near the velocity of light the pretended length contraction shall compress

the moving body to a flat disk

E 15    The pretended effect of the “twin paradox” (the travelling twin remaining younger) is said to be

caused by the acceleration during the space travel

Electromagnetism

F 1    Because a relative motion between magnet and conductor causes the same electric current independent

       of which element is moved (relative to the earth) the theory supposes the non-existence of absolute rest

F 2     Special relativity is founded on Maxwell’s electrodynamics which has deficiencies who are responsible

for deficiencies of special relativity

F 3    Special relativity is founded without reference to unipolar induction which proves an effect of

induction without relative motion

Minkowski-World

G 1      Minkowski pretends his ideas of space and time to be founded on experimental evidence

G 2     Space and time are said to exist only in a union of both

G 3     For the coordinate of time Minkowski pretends that there exist imaginary values

G 4     Minkowski introduces a manifold of spaces without defining how to separate them and to prove

their existence empirically

G 5     The four-dimensional Minkowski world cannot be interpreted as physical space

G 6     Minkowski’s “world lines” are interpreted by the relativists as real paths in space

G 7     Minkowski tries to interpret his four-dimensional space-time coordinate system as a material world

G 8     Minkowski declares the length contraction as a “gift from above”

Mathematics

H 1    A. Einstein’s derivations of the Lorentz Transformations are fundamental erroneous

H 2     The Lorentz Transformations do not satisfy the group conditions

H 3    A. Einstein’s and Max v. Laue’s derivations of the pretended effects of length contraction and

time dilatation are erroneous

H 4    Special relativity pretends under the same movement conditions the lengths to be contracted

but the times dilatated

H 5    The pretended Non-Euclidean geometry in space needs for its realization a measure of its curving

wich can be given only by Euclidean geometry

H 6    In the four-dimensional space the relativists pretend to establish a coordinate system with right angles

H 7    The spaces of special relativity and general relativity are said to be governed by different geometries:

in special relativity a flat geometry, in general relativity a curved one

Mass / Energy

J 1    A. Einstein pretends the velocity-dependent mass to be a relativistic effect

J 2    The relativists pretend that the experiments of Kaufmann (1901, 1902, 1906) have proved a

relativistic increase with velocity

Mass / Velocity

K 1    The mass-energy-relation E=mc² is interpretated as a transformation of mass into energy

K 2     The mass-energy-relation E=mc² is said to be found by A. Einstein and to be interpreted exclusively

by special relativity

Gravitation

L 1    For special relativity shall exist inertial systems which are not exposed to any gravitational field

L 2    With general relativity A. Einstein pretends to create a gravitational field only by changing

the coordinate system

General relativity

M 1    Between special and general relativity is pretended to exist a relation of passage from one to

the other theory

M 2    The equivalence principle of general relativity pretends to demonstrate the equivalence of gravitation,

acceleration and inertia

M 3    The equivalence principle is said to govern the cosmic phenomena

M 4    The equivalence principle pretends to demonstrate the equivalence of inertial systems and rotating systems

M 5    The pretended deviation of light by a gravitational field is said to be achieved by general relativity

and to conferm general relativity

M 6    The pretended deviation of light by a gravitational field is said to have been confermed by

observations of the sun’s eclipse 1919

M 7    A. Einstein’s explanation of the precession of Mercury’s perihel is said to be achieved by

general relativity and to conferm general relativity

M 8    The redshift of spectra caused by gravitation and predicted by general relativity is said to have

been confermed and thus conferms general relativity

M 9    A. Einstein pretends that in gravitational fields there do not exist rigid bodies with Euclidean properties

but only non-rigid bodies with changing forms depending on their movements, called

“reference-mollusks”

M 10     The relativists consider the concept of the rotating earth (Kopernikus) as equivalent to the

concept of the rotating fixed stars (Ptolemaios)

Thermodynamics

N 1    According to A. Einstein (1907) and M. Planck (1908) a relatively moving observer will find

the observed system with lower temperature

N 2    The relativistic treatment of thermodynamics by A. Einstein (1907), F. Hasenöhrl (1907) and

M. Planck are proved to be wrong

Experiments

O 1    Although the aether theory of Lorentz and A. Einstein’s special relativity without an aether are

mathematically identical certain experiment results are said to be confermations of

special relativity

O 2    A. Einstein and the relativists pretend their “thought experiments” (Gedankenexperimente) to be real

experiments which are based on “thought experiences”

O 3    Relativists declare certain little effects as unimportant but on the other side they declare other

minimal effects as decisive confermations

Theory of knowledge

P 1    Declaration of pure “assumptions” to be “principles” and finally “laws” whitout any further

argument or proof

P 2    Derivation of positive statements from negations

P 3    Relativists pretend that a statement not in contrast to a theory proves the theory

P 4    A. Einstein (1905)  in his statements about length contraction and time dilatation uses contrasting

qualifications: sometimes the effects “are” and sometimes they “appear” to be

P 5    The two fundamental principles of special relativity, the principle of relativity and the constancy

of the velocity of light, are claimed to be compatible

P 6    Relativists declare experimental results as confermations of their theory without proving that

only relativity theory can explain and predict the results

P 7    Relativists calumniate the common sense as incompetent but fail to show which better sense they are using

Methodology

Q 1    The transfer of the principle of relativity of electrodynamics to mechanics is said to be in no

contrast with any empirical result

Q 2    Assertion of an effect in special relativity (e.g. the twin paradox) and explanation of this effect

in general relativity

Q 3    The relativists answer the questions of the physical causes for their pretended effects

by evading into many different explanations (according to the respective authors) or by

asserting that the effects have no causes

Q 4    A. Einstein developed his concepts of length contraction and time dilatation only on the basis

of kinematics without considering the dynamics

Q 5    The Lorentz transformations are the center of special relativity and the cause of its flaws

Q 6    For the pretended proof of special and general relativity the relativists transfer results

of particle physics into macro physics

Q 7    According to A. Einstein the effects of inertia in a decelerating train are caused by

the gravitational field of the fixed stars

Q 8    In both relativity theories A. Einstein uses certain distinctions and limitations without

giving the physical conditions

Q 9    In special relativity the pretended findings are developed considering only the kinematics

and the behaviour of only two objects but are pretended to be valid in a reality

with many objects and governed by dynamics

Q 10    A. Einstein introduces special and general relativity with distinct and observable objects

and observers and their observations, but claims of the critics for distinctness and

observability of the pretended constructions and effects are rejected

Q 11    The relativists pretend all mathematical relations to represent physical reality

Structure of the theory

R 1    Special relativity is a package of disparate ideas partly found and published before 1905 by

other scientists and partly A. Einstein’s own ideas

R 2    According to A. Einstein the validity of the two relativity theories is restricted to different

dimensions of space for each theory

R 3    A. Einstein between 1915 and 1920 changed his ideas about the theory of knowledge which

necessarily should have led to a public revision of special relativity

R 4    For the explanation of the inertia in the decelerated train in general relativity A. Einstein claims

the effect of a gravitational field of the fixed stars, but for special relativity he assumes

inertial systems in a space free of gravitational fields

Expositions of the theory

S 1    The relativistic authors use to assert on fundamental issues many contrasting statements and

explanations but refrain from discussing which of their versions of the theory has to be

taken serious

S 2    For the proof of the correctness of special relativity the relativists claim to have the majority of

the physicists on their side

S 3    The relativistic authors pretend that only special and general relativity can explain certain physical

phenomena

S 4    The relativistic authors pretend that without special relativity one could not construct and manage

atom bombs and nuclear power stations and particle colliders

S 5    The relativistic authors pretend that new theories are accepted only by gradually accustoming the public

S 6    In relativistic textbooks and papers very often statements of “movement” and “rest” are used without

defining in relation to which body the object “moves” or “rests”

S 7    In relativistic textbooks the authors use the same word sometimes with quotation marks and sometimes

without quotation marks without defining the intended difference of meaning

S 8    Many relativistisc authors pretend that the relativistic effects do appear only at very high velocities

near the velocity of light

S 9    A. Einstein declares in the reprint 1913 of his paper of 1905 that he in 1905 has had no knowledge

of the paper of Lorentz of 1904

Social pressure and enforcement

T 1    The relativists try to suppress any critical books and papers by preventing their publication

T 2    If critical papers or books have already been published their authors are calumniated by the relativists

T 3    The relativists prevent a reception of published critical papers or books by banning them from

their bibliographic references and not answering them publicly but covering them with silence

T 4    The relativists persecute all persons critical of special relativity and exclude them from all jobs in

academic physics and in school teaching

T 5    The relativists calumniate all critics of special relativity as antisemites, nazi, stalinist and the like

T 6    With the suppression of any criticism since 1922 in Germany the general public is deceived about

the real state of the theory

T 7    The relativists propagate the theory of special relativity in all circles of society far from natural sciences

without informing them about the existing criticism

T 8    The relativists misuse their influence and the tricks of pedagogy in teaching for the indoctrination

of the young public about the great achievements of relativity

T 9    The relativists misuse the suggestive power of the audiovisual media presenting their pretended effects

as real and without informing about criticism

Effects on other disciplines

U 1    Influence of special relativity on theology

U 2    Influence of special relativity on literature

U 3    Influence of special relativity on the arts

U 4    Influence of special relativity on philosophy

U 5    Influence of special relativity on science fiction

U 6    Influence of special relativity on esoteric writings

Motives for propagation of the theory

V 1    Exclusion of the aether from physics

V 2    Röntgen’s favour for A. Einstein for biographic reasons

V 3    The mathematicians have not warned against mathematical speculation in the field of physics

V 4    The extreme influence of the printed media 1920-23 has pushed the theory to an undisputable

state of revelation

V 5    A general turning away from a “physical theory of nature” to a “mathematical theory of nature”

V 6    The extreme propaganda for a theory never discussed with its critics is a trap because the relativists

can never correct themselves and confess what they have done

V 7    The thankfulness of Max Planck for A. Einstein’s interpretation of the fotoelectric effect using

Planck’s formula E=hv

[Guest Evgenik]

Мрачњак, прије него што кренеш са тим "римокатолички догматизам" стилом прво се мало информиши, па тек онда узимај за примјер нешто што си стварно утврдио да је истина.

Мада је фасцинантно што си баш изабрао теорију релативитета, за коју многи уважени професори квантне физике (првенствено њемачког и швајцарског круга) сматрају да је једна од првих која је постала "догма" којој се није смјело ништа приговорити.

Наука није апсолутна истина - ми се држимо теорија за које се трудимо да докажемо да су највјеродостојније, а да би научна мисао напредовала потребно је увијек оставити могућност да нисмо у праву.

[Aquilius Cratus]

svejedno, teroja relativiteta je neoborivo dokazana... zato je niko od vernika ne uzima  u usta, jer jednostavno ne bi imali niti jednog argumenta...

Ja nemogu da verujem u kom pravcu ide ovo tvoje pisanje. Teorija evolucije je isto tako dokazana kao teorija relativiteta. Jedino sto je ona mnogo sira i slozenija nego TR pa je lakse zloupotrebiti nerazumevanje ljudi.

[Guest Evgenik]

Као прво, ниједна теорија на планети није "необориво доказана",

и управо је теорија релативитета само једна од теорија која је разбијала дојучерашње аксиоме,

и натјерала научнике да редефинишу неке одреднице и дефиниције.

Дакле правило је: теорија је усвојена не као догма, него само док се не појави друга са већом вјеродостојношћу, дакле, "све је релативно драги Алберте" 

[Aquilius Cratus]

@Evgenik

Mracnjak je mislio na ovakve primere.

https://www.pouke.org/forum/index.php/topic,7922.msg218367.html#msg218367

[Guest Evgenik]

Знам за случај, али ради се о само једаном од феномена који произилазе из опште и специјалне теорије релативитета, и који се емпиријски показује као исправан/користан. Он је тврдио да је ТР нешто необориво, и да нико никада није ни покушавао да оспори ТР, на шта је добио само кратки преглед научне критике од 1908 до данас.Ништа није необориво, па да се узима као примјер, то ће вам потврдити сваки озбиљнији научник, поготово у области квантне физике.

[Aquilius Cratus]

Ja ga nisam tako shvatio. Mada po nekim ostalim njegovim postovima ne bih iskljucio da je mislio i na tako

nesto.

[Guest Evgenik]

svejedno, teroja relativiteta je neoborivo dokazana... zato je niko od vernika ne uzima  u usta, jer jednostavno ne bi imali niti jednog argumenta...

Ево, ја сам је узео у уста, и то аргументима десетина уважених квантних физичара.

Безвезе. Мука ми је од идолатрије било чему, па и науци која управо доживљава своју декаденцију

због људи који све схватају а приори затвореног ума, и све претварају у религију.

[Аурор]

Ma idi. Meni je muka od gomile ljudi koji govore da ne samo da su dokazali da nije tačno nešto što su svi aksiomatski podrazumevali da je tačno nego im je još i čudno kada neko govori suprotno. Niđe veze sa mozgom, naročito kada su u pitanju neke teorije. A sam naziv govori da su u pitanju stvari koje su dokazane.

Šta kažu ti "uvaženi kvantni fizičari"? Da brzina svetlosti nije najveća?

Hipotetički bi onaj ko razvije brzinu veću od brzine svetlosti mogao da putuje kroz vreme.

Izvolite razvijte ako nije najveća.