Potop, argumenti za i protiv

[winux59]

Sta ima tu da se objasnjava? Sta ti nije jasno u vezi sa nalazenjem fosila morskih organizama u sedimentima koji su nekada bili morsko dno?

Evo sta mi nije jasno ood uobicajenim prirodnim procesima koji se sada odigravaju, fosili se veoma retko formiraju. Jedini nacin na koji mogu da budu sacuvani dovoljno dugo od uobicajenog procesa raspadanja, je brzim zakopavanjem u vodenim sedimetnima. Vilijam D`. Miler (William J. Miller), profesor geologije u penziji sa U.C.L.A. istice to:

“Srazmerno malo ostataka organizama, koji sada naseljavaju zemlju, se talozi pod uslovima povoljnim za njihovo ocuvanje u obliku fosila... Svejedno je upecatljivo da je toliko veliki broj fosila ukopan u stene...”

Jasna cinjenica je da su formacije stena Zemlje zaista bogate fosilima sto dolazi u sukob sa siromastvom potencijalnih fosila koji se formiraju pod sada{njim uslovima. Geolozi ponekad govore o “nepotpunosti fosilnog

zapisa”, ali to je samo zbog odsustva ocekivanih nedostaju}ih karika u pretpostavljenom evolucionom nizu razvoja.

Postoji obilje poznatih fosila, svih vrsta organizama. Prakticno sve savremene familije, i vecina rodova, su predstavljene u fosilnom zapisu, kao i veliki broj izumrlih organizama. Istaknuti svedski naucnik, preminuli direktor Botanickog instituta u Lundu, u Svedskoj, kaze:

‘karika koje nedostaje‘, da bi tako posluzila kao ubeljiv dokaz. Ako se pretpostavljeni predacki tip ne pronadje, jednostavno se izjavljuje da do sada nije bio prona|en. Sam Darvin je cesto koristio taj argument, a u njegovo vreme je to mozda i bilo opravdano. Ali je izgubio svoju vrednost tokom ogromnog napretka paleobiologije u 20. veku.... Prava situacija je da ti fosili koji su ocekivani nisu bili pronadjeni. Upravo je tamo, gde se pretpostavlja da se nove grane odvajaju od glavnog stabla, bilo nemoguce pronaci povezujuce tipove.”

Da li ti mislis da sam ja lud pa da kazem, nema fosila ali nautilodii to dokazuju?

Mislio sam da nije bilo tragova bioturbacije, a zasto smatram da su fosili u grand kanjonu dokaz za potop?

Pa eto naveo sam kako oni nastaju, i kako su mogli nastati kako ti kazes ako je recica kolorado pravila taj kanjon, ajd onjasni mi na primer ove fosile nisu nadjeni u koloradu, al za nautilodie cu ti odgovoriti dalje u tekstu

al kako je nastao recimo ovaj fosil?

I to nije jedini nadjen primerak,

Da li si svestan da je u tvojoj glavi i postojanje i nepostojanje takvih fosila dokaz za biblijski Potop???

Na ovo sam ti upravo odgovorio.

A da li si ti svestan, da verujes u evoluciju konja a pra predak konja je jazavac, primerak iste vrste koji zivi i dan danas, dalje tvrdis da su dinosaurusi evolurali u ptice, a naucnici sa tvoje strane jedni drugima protivrece, za sve podvale pildaunski covek, hekel java men itd vi samo kazete pa evolucionisti su to otkrili i nikakav, problem, da li podrzavas da se deca u skoli i dalje lazu kako je slepo crevo, krajnici nepotrebni organi koji su eto dokaz evolucije? iako moderna medicina jasno ukazuje da imaju itetkako vaznu ulogu u imunom sistemu, da ne nabrajam dalje.

Geolozi tvrde da nece.

Neki geolozi ne svi.

Citat

Zaboravio si da kazes da visina kanjona na kom reka ulazi u kanjon je 853,44 metara

a gde izlazi 548,64 m a izmedju je visina 2133 metara, kako to da reka sa 853,44 metara se penje na 2133 pa onda opada na 548?

Nisam, vec za razliku od tebe nisam zaboravio ono sto uostalom pise i u tvojoj poruci a to je da naucnici smatraju da se to tlo izdizalo, tj. ne smatraju da je uvek imalo konfiguraciju kakvu danas ima.

Dakle ti smatras da se izdizalo samo sredina kanjona a ne pocetak i kraj? i da se to desilo posle preticanja reke kolorado, jer ako bi se izdizanje desilo pre nego sto je reka kolorado postojala ona bi obisla tu planinu?

A na osnovu cega to tvrdis?

Mene zanimju tragovi dinosaurusa u vertikalnoj steni nadjeni kako su oni nastali?

Dakle ako imamo fosil velike ribe da jede malu ribu, svugde po svetu, imamo fosile riba sa otvorenim perajima, imamo fosile skoljki takodje, ti zakljucujes da je svugde bila mala poplava umesto globalni potop? Zasto?

Kad napises ovako nesto, jel ti zaista mislis da su geolozi totalni imbecili, koji misle da se reka penjala 1100 metara u vis?

Expelled no intelignece allowed.

Znam da imas odgovor i na ovo

Opet, zbog tendencije da ignorises odredjene stvari, moram ponovo da pitam:Kad u istoj poruci napises da u kanjonu Kolorada nisu nadjeni fosili morskih zivotinja i da jesu nadjeni nautiloidi, jel te nije blam da nastavljas tu pricu kao da znas o cemu pricas?

Slobodno pitaj sta ti nije jasno, to sam ti vec odgovorio, nemogu da okacim sliku ti nautiloidi o kojima ja govorim imaju duguljast oblik i njihovi fosili ukazuju na jedan pravac, a ne nasumicno sto bi bilo logicno ako su padali kako je koji uginao.

A kako objasnjavas da su slojevi tako idealno ravni? a navodno predstavljaju milione godina? Zar ne bi pala kisa jednom u milion godina i napravila tragove erocije u njima?

I fali ti sloj od 10 miliona godina.

Tapeats sandstone, redwall limestone i coconino sandstone spadaju u grupu od 5 megasekvencnih slojeva koji se prostiru preko cele severne amerike isti slojevi kako je to moguce, a onda isti slojevi i u izraelu. kako je to moguce?

[Млађони]

Expelled no intelignece allowed.

Znam da imas odgovor i na ovo

Expeled debunked flunked za tebe gde se pokazuje da svi tamo od prvog do zadnjeg lazu kao psi.

[winux59]

Expeled debunked flunked za tebe gde se pokazuje da svi tamo od prvog do zadnjeg lazu kao psi.

vidim ne citas postove gde se navodi da je na "expelled no inteligence allowed' se pojavilo gomila ne jedan ali gomila sajtova sa glupim prigovorima koje niko ne uzima ozbiljno.

Jel ti stvarno verujes da svi naucnici kreacionisti lazu? svi ti ljudi koji su ostali bez posla?

to je strasno.

[Млађони]

vidim ne citas postove gde se navodi da je na "expelled no inteligence allowed' se pojavilo gomila ne jedan ali gomila sajtova sa glupim prigovorima koje niko ne uzima ozbiljno.

Niko od kreacionista ne uziam za ozbiljno.

Jel ti stvarno verujes da svi naucnici kreacionisti lazu? svi ti ljudi koji su ostali bez posla?

Ajde ovako postavi pitanje, da li ti winuxe stvarno verujes da 99 % naucnika koji se bave bioloskim naukamaa kada se uzmu sve nauke ukupno to je ko 90 % naucnika, veruje u evoluciju slepo?

Uz to cinjenica vezana za sve kreacioniste da su ili fundamentalni HRISCANI ili MUSLIMANI.

Normalno je da ne veruju u evoluciju kad im se sukobljva sa paradigmom kao i tebi.

Ne sumnjas ti u evolucij uzbog snage dokaza ili argumenta, vec zato sto ti se ne slaze sa religijskim gledanjem. I to je svim hriscanima ovde na forumu i okolo jasno kao dan.

Nema nijedan kreacionista da je hindu, budista, ateista, ili neki libelarniji hriscanin ili musliman. Svi do jednog su fundamentalisti.

Vecina naucnika koji "sumnjaju" u evolucioju ima jako tanke veze sa biologijom.

Naravno da verujem da svi lazu.

Znash li zasto?

- Zato sto su svi fundamentalisti hriscani, prvenstveno imaju motiv da lazu. Sukobljava im se sa religijskim gledanjem na svet, za koje su ljudi nekad spremni zivot da daju a kamoli da pricaju gluposti.

- Niko od njih nije napravio pristojan naucni rad na tu temu, nije napravio teoriju inteligentnog dizajna koju podupire dokazi, svi se maju po debatama, predavanjima i dokumentarcima NESTRUCNOJ publici. Ne stavljaju pred tu vecinsku naucno evolucijsku.

- Zato stu su teska manjina.

- Zato sto zaradjuju pare od toga.

- Zato sto za mnoge od njih imam provereno da su slagali po nekim pitanjima.

- Zato sto evolucija objasnjava mnoge stvari, krecionizam ne objasnjava nista nego mu je smisao da dokazuje subjektivnu religijsku opredeljenost "moj je bog pravi jer je moja biblija tacna"

Evolucija ne dokazuje nijednu religijsku opredeljenost ali obara jedan pogled na svet, a to je da je "covek centar sveta" normalno da to mnogima smeta. Medjutim svako ko se iole bavio jednostavno padne pred argumentima.

Измењено Јануар 5, 2012 од iurisprudentia

[Avocado]

Evo sta mi nije jasno ood uobicajenim prirodnim procesima koji se sada odigravaju, fosili se veoma retko formiraju. Jedini nacin na koji mogu da budu sacuvani dovoljno dugo od uobicajenog procesa raspadanja, je brzim zakopavanjem u vodenim sedimetnima.

Alo covece, pa vec sam ti na ovom sajtu objasnio da ovo nije tacno, tj. da postoje i mnogi drugi nacini fosilizacije.

link

Tvoja selektivna amnezija bas smara.

‘karika koje nedostaje‘, da bi tako posluzila kao ubeljiv dokaz. Ako se pretpostavljeni predacki tip ne pronadje, jednostavno se izjavljuje da do sada nije bio prona|en. Sam Darvin je cesto koristio taj argument, a u njegovo vreme je to mozda i bilo opravdano. Ali je izgubio svoju vrednost tokom ogromnog napretka paleobiologije u 20. veku.... Prava situacija je da ti fosili koji su ocekivani nisu bili pronadjeni. Upravo je tamo, gde se pretpostavlja da se nove grane odvajaju od glavnog stabla, bilo nemoguce pronaci povezujuce tipove.”

Naprotiv danas imamo prelazne forme za sve prelaze... a to sto vi sad trazite da nadjemo prelazne forme izmedju prelaznih formi je samo vas problem i pitanje vaseg intelektualnog nepostenja.

Da li ti mislis da sam ja lud pa da kazem, nema fosila ali nautilodii to dokazuju?

Da, mislim da jesi lud...

Ne mislim vec znam da jesi napisao da u Velikom kanjonu nema morskih fosila a ima nautolida... to si napisao u ovoj poruci... i to svi koji su procitali znaju... prosto to u njoj pise, cak je i boldirano...

Upravo i mislim da jesi lud zato sto pokusavas ovakve stvari, tj. pokusavas da negiras nesto sto je zaista nemoguce negirati... tj. moguce je ali ispadas lud... iz nekog razloga, to ti prolazi na sestodnevu... ali bar se nadam da ovde ljudi ne pate od selektivne amnezije.

Mislio sam da nije bilo tragova bioturbacije, a zasto smatram da su fosili u grand kanjonu dokaz za potop?

Recenice u toj poruci koje se odnose na postojanje i nepostojanje morskih fosila u Velikom kanjonu nemaju veze sa biturbacijom.

Pa eto naveo sam kako oni nastaju, i kako su mogli nastati kako ti kazes ako je recica kolorado pravila taj kanjon, ajd onjasni mi na primer ove fosile nisu nadjeni u koloradu, al za nautilodie cu ti odgovoriti dalje u tekstu

al kako je nastao recimo ovaj fosil?

Nemam pojma kako je tacno nastao taj fosil... mogu samo da nagadjam... a ne znam sto mislis da je on bitno drugaciji od nekog drugog zato sto je ta riba umrla dok je jela drugu ribu? Svaki fosil je umro na neki nacin.

Na ovo sam ti upravo odgovorio.

Ja zaista nisam video direktan odgovor... a "jesam svestan" ili "nisam svestan" je sasvim dovoljno... eventualno mozes da porices da si i jedno i drugo smatrao dokazom... sto bi naravno bilo u suprotnosti sa prethodnim porukama koje si napisao.

A da li si ti svestan, da verujes u evoluciju konja a pra predak konja je jazavac, primerak iste vrste koji zivi i dan danas, dalje tvrdis da su dinosaurusi evolurali u ptice, a naucnici sa tvoje strane jedni drugima protivrece, za sve podvale pildaunski covek, hekel java men itd vi samo kazete pa evolucionisti su to otkrili i nikakav, problem, da li podrzavas da se deca u skoli i dalje lazu kako je slepo crevo, krajnici nepotrebni organi koji su eto dokaz evolucije? iako moderna medicina jasno ukazuje da imaju itetkako vaznu ulogu u imunom sistemu, da ne nabrajam dalje.

Ja ne verujem u evoluciju, to nije pitanje vere, ja samo prihvatam naucne dokaze i razumna objasnjenja tih dokaza.

Sto se tice evolucije konja, mrzelo me da se bavim tvojim tvrdnjama, preskocio sam, mada sam sasvim siguran da predak konja nije jazavac... samo kreacionisti mogu da zamisle da jedna moderna vrsta potice od druge moderne vrste.

Sto se tice evolucije ptica, vec sam ti detaljno objasnio da je u pitanju samo debata od kojih dinosaura su ptice nastale, pri cemu je jedna strana u toj debati daleko brojnija sa daleko ubedljivijim argumentima i dokazima.

Slepo crevo jeste vestigijalni organ sto ne znaci da nema apsolutno nikakvu funkciju, vec znaci da je izgubilo funkciju koju je sasvim ocigledno imalo u precima coveka. U pitanju je deo digestivnog trakta u kojem su se kod predaka ljudi razmnozavale bakterije koje razlazu celulozu a kojih vise nema tu jer ljudi ne jedu travu. To sto su se ljudi adaptirali i sto se u tom delu creva nalazi jedan broj limfnih zlezda korisnih za imuni sistem, ne znaci da nije u pitanju vestigijalni organ, jer se taj izraz odnosi na organe koji su potpuno izgubili raniju funkciju, cak i kada su stekli neku novu "manju" funkciju. Kao i obicno, pogresno razumete neke osnovne pojmove.

Neki geolozi ne svi.

Skoro svi geolozi, ukljucujuci i udzbenike. Good enough for me.

Dakle ti smatras da se izdizalo samo sredina kanjona a ne pocetak i kraj? i da se to desilo posle preticanja reke kolorado, jer ako bi se izdizanje desilo pre nego sto je reka kolorado postojala ona bi obisla tu planinu?

A na osnovu cega to tvrdis?

Geolozi smatraju da se izdizalo celo podrucje a to se gotovo nikad ne desava tako da se sve izdize na istu visinu, u suprotnom ne bismo imali planinske vrhove, vec bi svuda imali izdignute platoe.

Mene zanimju tragovi dinosaurusa u vertikalnoj steni nadjeni kako su oni nastali?

Ne znam na sta mislis.

Dakle ako imamo fosil velike ribe da jede malu ribu, svugde po svetu, imamo fosile riba sa otvorenim perajima, imamo fosile skoljki takodje, ti zakljucujes da je svugde bila mala poplava umesto globalni potop? Zasto?

Zato sto se na desetine lokalnih poplava desava svake godine (pratis vesti?).

Zato sto ne postoji apsolutno ni jedan dokaz globalnog potopa i svi dokazi koje imamo ukazuju da se nije nikada desio.

Expelled no intelignece allowed.

Znam da imas odgovor i na ovo

Ma imam X odgovora na to ali nemam potrebu da debunkujem ceo film. Sama premisa je idiotska jer potpuno ignorise tzv. tenure. Cela ta pricica ignorise cinjenicu da profesori posle odredjenog vremena steknu tenuru i da ne mogu da budu otpusteni. Cak i da su tvrdnje filma tacne i da neko sistematski otpusta ili ne produzava ugovor profesorima koji nisu stekli tenuru, opet je to irelevantno jer profesore sa tenurom ne mozes da sprecis da kazu istinu jer ne mozes da im pretis otkazom. Na primer, Bihi i dalje radi na svom univerzitetu i ne moze mu niko nista.

Jednostavno, te vase male glupe teorije zavere su zaista na nivou kako mali Perica zamislja naucnu zajednicu i potpuno su u suprotnosti sa realnoscu. Naucna zajednica je mesto nesloge, mesto u kojem se zapravo najvise cene upravo oni koji sruse vladajucu teoriju i zamene je novom, boljom i ispravnijom. Zato i za svako pitanje mozete da iskopate naucnike koji se ne slazu sa mainstream-om. A vi citirate Bihija i Feduciju a istovremeno tvrdite da postoji zavera u nauci... to je vise nego smesno i naivno.

Slobodno pitaj sta ti nije jasno, to sam ti vec odgovorio, nemogu da okacim sliku ti nautiloidi o kojima ja govorim imaju duguljast oblik i njihovi fosili ukazuju na jedan pravac, a ne nasumicno sto bi bilo logicno ako su padali kako je koji uginao.

Naravno da na moje pitanje nisi odgovorio ali nema veze.

A kako objasnjavas da su slojevi tako idealno ravni? a navodno predstavljaju milione godina? Zar ne bi pala kisa jednom u milion godina i napravila tragove erocije u njima?

I fali ti sloj od 10 miliona godina.

Ne znam koji slojevi su idealno ravni i odakle ti ideja da nije bilo erozije.

Nije nista cudno da poneki sloj fali... uglavnom i fale zbog erozije.

Tapeats sandstone, redwall limestone i coconino sandstone spadaju u grupu od 5 megasekvencnih slojeva koji se prostiru preko cele severne amerike isti slojevi kako je to moguce, a onda isti slojevi i u izraelu. kako je to moguce?

Nisam geolog da bih mogao da ti dam to objasnjenje. Takodje, ne mogu da utvrdim da li je ta tvrdnja uopste tacna... koji izvor imas za tu tvrdnju?

[Avocado]

Tako tipicno za ove rasprave, teziste se nekako uvek prebaci na napad i odbranu nauke... ja bih molio da se tema vrati na "Potop, argumenti za i protiv"... ja cu sad izneti samo nekoliko argumenta protiv, samo one koje smatram prilicno jakim tj. nespornim da ne bismo opet sirili pricu na sto razlicitih tema... ocekujem od druge strane isto da iznese nekoliko najacih argumenta u prilog teze o istoricnosti globalnog potopa... ignorisacu bilo sta sto nije u vezi sa ovom temom, tj. napade na prihvacene teorije geologije, biologije i drugih nauka... dakle, nije tema da li geolozi grese, vec da li su kreacionisti u pravu...

Argumenti protiv biblijskog potopa:

1. Vodena bujica prilikom talozenja sedimenata ne moze da rasporedjuje fosile po slojevima sedimenata a oni su prilicno strogo rasporedjeni.

Fosili koje nalazimo se ne nalaze u slojevima nasumicno, vec se tacno odredjeni fosili nalaze u odredjenim slojevima. Mozemo da ignorisemo starost stena i fosila, opet ostaje nesporno da odredjene fosile (kambrijske) nalazimo samo u najnizim slojevima, da odredjene fosile nalazimo samo u srednjim slojevima i odredjene fosile (i kosture) samo u najvisim slojevima. Tipicno kreacionisticko objasnjenje, da slojevi odgovaraju stanistima zivotinja, pa su u najnizim slojevima morske zivotinje, u srednjim one koje nisu mogle da pobegnu od bujice a u najvisim one koje su bezale, ne odgovara realnosti. U najnizim slojevima se nalaze samo morske zivotinje jer kopno nije ni bilo naseljeno do Devona, medjutim od tog perioda, zivotinje iz razlicitih habitata nalazimo u svim slojevima. Morske zivotinje nalazimo i u srednjim slojevima (ribe sa vilicom se ne pojavljuju u najnizim, kao i morski reptili, mnoge vrste glavonosaca i slicno) a odredjene se nalaze samo u najvisim slojevima (kitovi i delfini). Najjednostavnije receno, pterodaktile nalazimu uvek u nizim slojevima od delfina i to sasvim efikasno anulira prethodno navedeni pokusaj kreacionistickog objasnjenja.

2. Raspored tj. redosled geoloskih slojeva negira mogucnost da su nastali usled globalnog potopa

Na skoro svim mestima na Zemlji, kako krenemo da kopamo u dubinu, nalazimo na slojeve koji su sasvim ocigledno predstavljali morske i kopnene slojeve i koji se na najvecem broju lokaliteta smenjuju, pa nadjemo recimo dva morska sloja pa tri kopnena pa jedan morski pa cetiri kopnena i slicno. Morske slojeve prepoznajemo po sastavu sedimenta, fosilima morskih organizama i sto je najvaznije nalazimo i tragove tunela koje morske zivotinje kopaju po dnu (vidi sliku1, sliku2,). Ovaj poslednji detalj je bitan jer negira mogucnost da su fosili morskih zivotinja i biljaka samo nabacani na neko mesto vec je sasvim sigurno da se radi o sedimentu koji je nekada bio morsko dno. (ima zaista dosta fosila tragova tj. ihnofosila, vise o tome mozete da procitate ovde: link). Sve isto vazi i za prepoznavanje kopnenih slojeva, s tim sto kod njih, pored ihnofosila imamo i druge tragove - tragove vetra ili tragove glecera, sto opet jasno ukazuje da nije u pitanju masa sedimenta, zivotinja i biljaka koje je voda pokupila i bacila negde, vec sloj koji je nesporno bio povrsina kopna i kao takav je prekriven drugim slojem. Naravno postoji i odredjeni slojevi koji su evidentno nastali tako sto je vodena bujica nanela sedimente i fosile ali njih lako prepoznajemo i nisu takvi da bi ukazali na poplavu biblijskih razmera.

Sama cinjenica da postoje slojevi koji predstavljaju neporemeceno morsko dno ili povrsinu kopna negira tezu da su nastali globalnom poplavom a ova teza je narocito osporena cinjenicom da imamo nekoliko slojeva morskog dna sa kopnenim slojevima izmedju. Ne postoji nacin da vodena bujica natalozi morski, pa kopneni, pa morski, pa kopneni sloj... a to je ono sto veoma cesto nalazimo.

3. Mnogi slojevi a narocito krecnjacke stene (krede) sadrze u sebi elemente koji se ne mogu objasniti jednim globalnim potopom

Stene krede se sastoje iz ogromnog broja kokolita. To su plocice od kalcijum-karbonata koje su bile deo oklopa mikro zelenih algi - kokolitofora. Ove plocice se jasno vide se pod mikroskopom kada se posmatra kreda. Za vreme Krede (taj period se zove po njima Cretaceous tj. Kreda), kalcijum se skupljao na dnu okeana i ovi mikroorganizmi su ga koristili za formiranje svojih oklopa. Kako su umirali, tako su se talozili na dnu i usled pristiska, vremenom su nastale krecnjacke stene. Sama velicina krecnjackih stena u Evropi koje su nastale na ovaj nacin (slika jedne od njih), je tolika da je nemoguce da nastanu u jednom dogadjaju od jedne populacije i jasno je da je formiranje ovih stena nastalo talozenjem kokolita milionima godina. Prosto, kada bi uzeli sva ziva bica koja trenutno zive na Zemlji, samleli njihove skelete, sabili da formiramo stenu, ona bi bila majusna naspram ovih stena. Drugim recima, nemoguce je da je toliko kokolitofora, koje su potrebne za formiranje ovih stena zivelo odjednom i umrlo odjednom u nekom globalnom dogadjaju, vec je zbog same kolicine jasno da je u pitanju talozenje koje je trajalo milionima godina.

4. Problemi price o Nojevoj barci

Postoje brojni problemi sa pricom o Nojevoj barci:

- kako je Noje skupio zivotinje iz svih delova sveta?

- gde je smestio svu hranu za zivotinje sa delikatnim dijetama (eukaliptus za koale, bambus za pande, itd), hranu za zivotinje koje inace jedu ogromnu kolicinu hrane, za mesozdere i kako je obezbedio da se ta hrana ne pokvari tokom potopa?

- sta su zivotinje jele nakon potopa kad je sav biljni svet bio unisten (narocito mesozderi)?

- kako su prezivele sve bakterije i virusi koji inace ubijaju ljude?

- kako su se zivotinje nakon potopa rasporedile po Zemlji? (Kako je lenjivac stigao u Juznu Ameriku? Kako su puzevi dosli u Australiju?)

- kako je drveni brod preziveo dogadjaj koji je navodno rezao planine, tj. kako ga prvi nalet bujice, dok je jos bio na kopnu, nije razbio u paramparcad?

- kako su sve vrste razvile genetsku raznovrsnost koju imaju danas ukoliko sve potpicu iz masovnog incesta koji se desio pre par hiljada godina?

- kako je od X vrsta zivotinja koje su se nalazile na Barci, za nekoliko hiljada godina nastalo nekoliko miliona vrsta koje danas zive na svetu (sto predstavlja zapravo super brzu evoluciju - nastanak nekoliko vrsta svakog dana)?

- zasto danas ne vidjamo nastanak nekoliko vrsta svakog dana?

- odakle je dosla i gde je nestala ogromna kolicina vode potrebna za Biblijski potop?

- kako su morske i recne vrste riba i sisara prezivele mesanje slatke i slane vode?

- kako su preziveli insekti koji ne mogu da prezive u vodi?

Napomene:

- s obzirom da kreacionisti zagovaraju ucenje kreacionizma u skolama u predmetima koji se bave naukom, ocekujem da odgovori ne ukljucuju natprirodna objasnjenja. Naravno da se na sve ovo moze odgovoriti da je svemocni bog to uradio svojom "magijom" ali ja nemam nameru da se raspravljam sa necijom verom.

- iz istog razloga ocekujem da bilo kakvo pominjanje tzv. "kinds" bude propraceno jasnom definicijom (a ne samo primerom) ovog pojma, koja definicija ga razgranicava od srodnih pojmova, sto je uobicajno u nauci ili ozbiljnim razgovorima kada se iznosi pojam koji nema jasno znacenje.

Toliko za sad, da ne sirimo dalje pricu. Kao sto rekoh, ocekujem ovako i argumente/dokaze uz obrazlozenje u korist istinitosti biblijskog potopa.

[winux59]

Tako tipicno za ove rasprave, teziste se nekako uvek prebaci na napad i odbranu nauke... ja bih molio da se tema vrati na "Potop, argumenti za i protiv"... ja cu sad izneti samo nekoliko argumenta protiv, samo one koje smatram prilicno jakim tj. nespornim da ne bismo opet sirili pricu na sto razlicitih tema... ocekujem od druge strane isto da iznese nekoliko najacih argumenta u prilog teze o istoricnosti globalnog potopa... ignorisacu bilo sta sto nije u vezi sa ovom temom, tj. napade na prihvacene teorije geologije, biologije i drugih nauka... dakle, nije tema da li geolozi grese, vec da li su kreacionisti u pravu...

Argumenti protiv biblijskog potopa:

1. Vodena bujica prilikom talozenja sedimenata ne moze da rasporedjuje fosile po slojevima sedimenata a oni su prilicno strogo rasporedjeni.

Fosili koje nalazimo se ne nalaze u slojevima nasumicno, vec se tacno odredjeni fosili nalaze u odredjenim slojevima. Mozemo da ignorisemo starost stena i fosila, opet ostaje nesporno da odredjene fosile (kambrijske) nalazimo samo u najnizim slojevima, da odredjene fosile nalazimo samo u srednjim slojevima i odredjene fosile (i kosture) samo u najvisim slojevima. Tipicno kreacionisticko objasnjenje, da slojevi odgovaraju stanistima zivotinja, pa su u najnizim slojevima morske zivotinje, u srednjim one koje nisu mogle da pobegnu od bujice a u najvisim one koje su bezale, ne odgovara realnosti. U najnizim slojevima se nalaze samo morske zivotinje jer kopno nije ni bilo naseljeno do Devona, medjutim od tog perioda, zivotinje iz razlicitih habitata nalazimo u svim slojevima. Morske zivotinje nalazimo i u srednjim slojevima (ribe sa vilicom se ne pojavljuju u najnizim, kao i morski reptili, mnoge vrste glavonosaca i slicno) a odredjene se nalaze samo u najvisim slojevima (kitovi i delfini). Najjednostavnije receno, pterodaktile nalazimu uvek u nizim slojevima od delfina i to sasvim efikasno anulira prethodno navedeni pokusaj kreacionistickog objasnjenja.

2. Raspored tj. redosled geoloskih slojeva negira mogucnost da su nastali usled globalnog potopa

Na skoro svim mestima na Zemlji, kako krenemo da kopamo u dubinu, nalazimo na slojeve koji su sasvim ocigledno predstavljali morske i kopnene slojeve i koji se na najvecem broju lokaliteta smenjuju, pa nadjemo recimo dva morska sloja pa tri kopnena pa jedan morski pa cetiri kopnena i slicno. Morske slojeve prepoznajemo po sastavu sedimenta, fosilima morskih organizama i sto je najvaznije nalazimo i tragove tunela koje morske zivotinje kopaju po dnu (vidi sliku1, sliku2,). Ovaj poslednji detalj je bitan jer negira mogucnost da su fosili morskih zivotinja i biljaka samo nabacani na neko mesto vec je sasvim sigurno da se radi o sedimentu koji je nekada bio morsko dno. (ima zaista dosta fosila tragova tj. ihnofosila, vise o tome mozete da procitate ovde: link). Sve isto vazi i za prepoznavanje kopnenih slojeva, s tim sto kod njih, pored ihnofosila imamo i druge tragove - tragove vetra ili tragove glecera, sto opet jasno ukazuje da nije u pitanju masa sedimenta, zivotinja i biljaka koje je voda pokupila i bacila negde, vec sloj koji je nesporno bio povrsina kopna i kao takav je prekriven drugim slojem. Naravno postoji i odredjeni slojevi koji su evidentno nastali tako sto je vodena bujica nanela sedimente i fosile ali njih lako prepoznajemo i nisu takvi da bi ukazali na poplavu biblijskih razmera.

Sama cinjenica da postoje slojevi koji predstavljaju neporemeceno morsko dno ili povrsinu kopna negira tezu da su nastali globalnom poplavom a ova teza je narocito osporena cinjenicom da imamo nekoliko slojeva morskog dna sa kopnenim slojevima izmedju. Ne postoji nacin da vodena bujica natalozi morski, pa kopneni, pa morski, pa kopneni sloj... a to je ono sto veoma cesto nalazimo.

3. Mnogi slojevi a narocito krecnjacke stene (krede) sadrze u sebi elemente koji se ne mogu objasniti jednim globalnim potopom

Stene krede se sastoje iz ogromnog broja kokolita. To su plocice od kalcijum-karbonata koje su bile deo oklopa mikro zelenih algi - kokolitofora. Ove plocice se jasno vide se pod mikroskopom kada se posmatra kreda. Za vreme Krede (taj period se zove po njima Cretaceous tj. Kreda), kalcijum se skupljao na dnu okeana i ovi mikroorganizmi su ga koristili za formiranje svojih oklopa. Kako su umirali, tako su se talozili na dnu i usled pristiska, vremenom su nastale krecnjacke stene. Sama velicina krecnjackih stena u Evropi koje su nastale na ovaj nacin (slika jedne od njih), je tolika da je nemoguce da nastanu u jednom dogadjaju od jedne populacije i jasno je da je formiranje ovih stena nastalo talozenjem kokolita milionima godina. Prosto, kada bi uzeli sva ziva bica koja trenutno zive na Zemlji, samleli njihove skelete, sabili da formiramo stenu, ona bi bila majusna naspram ovih stena. Drugim recima, nemoguce je da je toliko kokolitofora, koje su potrebne za formiranje ovih stena zivelo odjednom i umrlo odjednom u nekom globalnom dogadjaju, vec je zbog same kolicine jasno da je u pitanju talozenje koje je trajalo milionima godina.

4. Problemi price o Nojevoj barci

Postoje brojni problemi sa pricom o Nojevoj barci:

- kako je Noje skupio zivotinje iz svih delova sveta?

- gde je smestio svu hranu za zivotinje sa delikatnim dijetama (eukaliptus za koale, bambus za pande, itd), hranu za zivotinje koje inace jedu ogromnu kolicinu hrane, za mesozdere i kako je obezbedio da se ta hrana ne pokvari tokom potopa?

- sta su zivotinje jele nakon potopa kad je sav biljni svet bio unisten (narocito mesozderi)?

- kako su prezivele sve bakterije i virusi koji inace ubijaju ljude?

- kako su se zivotinje nakon potopa rasporedile po Zemlji? (Kako je lenjivac stigao u Juznu Ameriku? Kako su puzevi dosli u Australiju?)

- kako je drveni brod preziveo dogadjaj koji je navodno rezao planine, tj. kako ga prvi nalet bujice, dok je jos bio na kopnu, nije razbio u paramparcad?

- kako su sve vrste razvile genetsku raznovrsnost koju imaju danas ukoliko sve potpicu iz masovnog incesta koji se desio pre par hiljada godina?

- kako je od X vrsta zivotinja koje su se nalazile na Barci, za nekoliko hiljada godina nastalo nekoliko miliona vrsta koje danas zive na svetu (sto predstavlja zapravo super brzu evoluciju - nastanak nekoliko vrsta svakog dana)?

- zasto danas ne vidjamo nastanak nekoliko vrsta svakog dana?

- odakle je dosla i gde je nestala ogromna kolicina vode potrebna za Biblijski potop?

- kako su morske i recne vrste riba i sisara prezivele mesanje slatke i slane vode?

- kako su preziveli insekti koji ne mogu da prezive u vodi?

Napomene:

- s obzirom da kreacionisti zagovaraju ucenje kreacionizma u skolama u predmetima koji se bave naukom, ocekujem da odgovori ne ukljucuju natprirodna objasnjenja. Naravno da se na sve ovo moze odgovoriti da je svemocni bog to uradio svojom "magijom" ali ja nemam nameru da se raspravljam sa necijom verom.

- iz istog razloga ocekujem da bilo kakvo pominjanje tzv. "kinds" bude propraceno jasnom definicijom (a ne samo primerom) ovog pojma, koja definicija ga razgranicava od srodnih pojmova, sto je uobicajno u nauci ili ozbiljnim razgovorima kada se iznosi pojam koji nema jasno znacenje.

Toliko za sad, da ne sirimo dalje pricu. Kao sto rekoh, ocekujem ovako i argumente/dokaze uz obrazlozenje u korist istinitosti biblijskog potopa.

Ako stvarno iskreno zelis odgovore na ova pitanja, svi odgovori se nalaze u knjizi "Dr D`on Vitkomb

Dr Henri Moris - Biblijski potop" ja nemogu ovde da prepisujem celu knjigu.

[winux59]

evo par dokaza ili argumenata za za potop

FOSSILS AND ROCK STRATA—Above the molten rock at the center of our planet is a mantle of black basalt, from which flows the lava which issues forth out of volcanoes. Above that basalt is to be found the light-colored, coarse-grained crystals we call granite. This is the basement rock of the world and undergirds all of our continents. At times this granite is close to the surface, but frequently a large quantity of sedimentary rock is above it.

The sedimentary rock that overlays the granite was obviously laid down by a gigantic flood of waters, and is characterized by strata or layers. The strata are composed of water-borne sediments, such as pebbles, gravel, sand, and clay.

Within that strata is to be found billions upon billions of fossils. These are the remains—or the casts—of plants and animals that suddenly died. Yet fossilization does not normally occur today; for it requires sudden death, sudden burial, and great pressure.

The sedimentary strata (also called fossil-bearing strata or "the geologic column") were laid down at the time of the Flood. There are no fossils in the granite, for that rock was formed prior to the Flood.

MILLIONS OF ANIMALS SUDDENLY DIED—The quantity of fossils in the sedimentary rocks is enormous.

Scores of other instances of immense "fossil graveyards" could be cited. Vast quantities of plants and animals were suddenly buried. So many fossils exist that one researcher made a carbon inventory,—and found that at the present time—most of the carbon in our world is locked within the fossils in the sedimentary strata!

There must have been an immense quantity of living plants and animals before the worldwide Flood occurred. Evidence indicates that, back then, our world had no deserts, high mountains, few or no oceans, and plants and animals flourished even near the poles. So the world would have been filled with vegetation and animal life.

MOST SPECIES ARE ALREADY EXTINCT— Some great natural catastrophe occurred earlier in history, for most of the species which have ever lived are no longer alive!

Yet even the smallest creatures are complex. Just beneath the lowest stratum, the Cambrian, we find no fossils at all! This is both an astonishment and a terrible disappointment to the evolutionists. The lowest-level life forms in the strata are complex multi-celled animals and plants.

RAPID FORMATION OF IMMENSE DEPOSITS—Nowhere on earth today do we have fossils forming on the scale that we see in geologic deposits. The Karro Beds in Africa, for example, contain the remains of perhaps 800 billion vertebrates! But such fossils are not forming today. A million fish can be killed in red tides in the Gulf of Mexico, but they simply decay away; they do not become fossils. Similarly, debris from vegetation does not today become coal. In order for fossilization to occur, the vegetation would have to be rapidly buried under an extremely heavy load of sediment.

It required massive flood conditions to do all that burying. An immense worldwide catastrophe occurred in the past. It produced the Sicilian hippopotamus beds, the fossils of which are so extensive that they are mined as a source of charcoal; the great mammal beds of the Rockies; the dinosaur beds of the Black Hills and the Rockies, as well as in the Gobi Desert; the fish beds of the Scottish Devonian stratum, the Baltic amber beds, Agate Spring Quarry in Nebraska, and hundreds more. None of this fossil-making is being done today. It only happened one time in history—at the time of the Flood.

Frequently the fossils in these beds come from widely separated and differing climatic zones, only to be thrown together in disorderly masses. Nothing but a worldwide Flood can explain this. And those fossils had to be rapidly buried. *Pinna explains why this is so.

"In fact, when an organism dies, the substances that compose its soft parts undergo more or less rapid decay, due to such factors as attack by bacteria and erosion by water (particularly the sea) . . If an organism is to be preserved, it must be protected from destructive agents as quickly as possible . . And the sooner that this consolidation occurs, the more likely it is that the organism will be preserved . . there are also certain layers, such as those formed from extremely fine-grained calcareous rocks, which have consolidated so rapidly as to permit the preservation of the most delicate structures of many organisms."—*G. Pinna, The Dawn of Life, pp. 1-2 [Deputy Director of the Museum of Natural History in Milan, Italy].

In spite of these facts, there are still science writers who imagine that when an animal falls into mud, tar, or water—and dies,—it becomes a fossil! But such an idea is only fiction.

"We can easily imagine the predicament which led to the fossilization of the three individuals [three fossil birds] so long ago. They were probably forced into reluctant flight by some pursuing reptilian predator, only to flop down on the water and mud from which they could not rise."—*R. Peterson, The Birds, p. 10.

PRECAMBRIAN VOID—The lowest stratum with fossils in it is called the "Cambrian." It has a great wealth of over a thousand different types of creatures—all complex and multi-celled marine animals.

Above this are the Ordovician, Silurian, and Devonian, and they all include sea creatures similar to those in the Cambrian. It is not until the Permo-Carboniferous that the first land animals are encountered.

The worldwide fossil strata give abundant evidence of a great flood of waters that covered the earth. Below the sedimentary strata, with its hoard of fossils, we find the "Precambrian period,"—and no fossils. (Some scientists claim that a few are there, others say they are not sure, while still others maintain that there are absolutely no fossils below the Cambrian.)

The sedimentary strata with their billions of fossils are both a powerful effect and evidence of the Flood. The Precambrian lack of fossils is an additional evidence of it. Evolutionists point to these strata with their fossils as proof of evolution. But throughout the fossil rock we should find transitional—evolving—types of plants and animals. In addition, at the bottom below the Cambrian should be the types that evolved into those in the Cambrian.

FOSSIL TREES—Polystrate trees are fossil trees which extend vertically through several layers of rock strata. They are often 20 feet [60.9 dm] or more in length. Often the entire length of each tree will be preserved, along with the top and bottom. Such a formation would easily be explained by the Flood, but impossible to be fitted into the theory of uniformitarianism, which says that the rock strata are like tree rings, and have slowly been forming over the last two billion years. Each stratum supposedly took millions of years to form.

There is no doubt that those trees were quickly covered by the strata, otherwise each tree would have decomposed while waiting for a hundred thousand years of strata to form around it. From bottom to top, these upright trees sometimes span "millions of years" of strata. Quite obviously, both the trees and sediments around them were moved into place and deposited at the same approximate time.

Many will recall the explosion of Mount St. Helens on May 18, 1980. Research was done at the site shortly afterward; and it was discovered that the explosion filled Spirit Lake with logs, many of which were floating vertically, due to the weight of their roots. This helps explain what took place at the time of the Flood, as trees were washed into an area and then, while floating vertically in the water, were covered by a rapid deposit of sediment.

As a result of upheaval of ground, combined with successive depositions of sedimentary layers, there are instances in which vertical trees are to be found at more than one level. Given the chaotic conditions at the time of the Flood, this would be understandable. Fossil trees have been found horizontal, vertical, diagonal, and upside down.

Why did no petroleum form after the Pliocene era? This is a mystery to evolutionist geologists, but it is no problem to Flood geology.

From the beginning of the Cambrian to the end of the Pliocene was when the Flood occurred.

"The apparent absence of formation of petroleum subsequent to the Pliocene must be explained in any study of the transformation of organic material into petroleum."—*Ibid.

(Some oil deposits have been found below the Cambrian level, but it was afterward learned that they seeped there from fossil-bearing strata above.)

Great masses of vegetation, that became the coal we use today, were quickly laid down. Because of Flood conditions, other things were also deposited in those coal strata:

(1) Marine fossils (tubeworms, corals, sponges, mollusks, etc.) are often found in coal beds.

(2) Large boulders are found in them.

(3) Fossil trees are found standing on an angle or even upside down in coal beds.

(4) Washed-in marine sediments will split a coal seam into two.

(5) Sediment "under-soils" will frequently be under them.

(6) Strata of deposited limestone, shale (hardened clay), or sandstone will be found in between coal deposits. These strata are often found scores of times in seams of coal.

Evolutionists maintain that oil and gas require millions of years to form, and could not be rapidly produced from vegetation, as Flood geology would require. But recent experiments have shown that petroleum can be quickly made:

"There is great promise in a system being developed by government scientists that converts organic material to oil and gas by treating it with carbon monoxide and water at high temperature and pressure . . By using the waste-to-oil process, 1.1 billion barrels [131 billion liters] of oil could be gleaned from the 880 million tons [798 mt] of organic wastes suitable for conversion [each year]."—*L.L. Anderson, "Oil from Garbage," in Science Digest, July 1973, p. 77.

Here is an instance in which recently formed coal occurred:

"Petzoidt (1882) describes very remarkable observations which he made during the construction of a railway bridge at Alt-Breisach, near Freiburg. The wooden piles which had been rammed into the ground were compressed by overriding blocks. An examination of these compressed piles showed that in the center of the compressed piles was a black, coal-like substance. In continuous succession from center to surface was blackened, dark-brown, light-brown and finally yellow-colored wood. The coal-like substance corresponded, in its chemical composition, to anthracite [hard coal], and the blackened wood resembled brown coal."—*Otto Stutzer, Geology of Coal (1940), pp. 105-106.

"From all available evidence it would appear that coal may form in a very short time, geologically speaking if conditions are favorable."—*E.S. Moore, Coal (1940), p. 143.

PROBLEM OF GRADED BEDDING—Geologists maintain that the sedimentary strata was gradually laid down over hundreds of millions of years. But various aspects of the strata indicate it was laid down rapidly under alluvial conditions. Rapid transport of various materials by water appears to have been the cause.

One example of this is graded bedding.In the strata we will find a layer of coarse pebbles and small stones, with smaller pebbles above them, grading off above to still finer materials such as sand. Below this graded bedding will be another graded bedding where the process has been repeated as another collection of sediments was washed in.

"The phenomenon of graded bedding (coarse conglomerate on the bottom, with finer material graded upward) is difficult to explain on the basis of uniformity, but not on the basis of Genesis 8:1-3 where we are told that the Creator dried up the flood-waters by strong winds that drove the waters by a "going and returning." This process, too, would more readily account forinterbedding, the repetitive alternation of certain layers, in some instances as many as 150 strata. Uniformitarian geology offers no satisfactory explanation for this phenomenon.

"Then there is the matter of disconformities, that is, a sudden change in fossil types with no accompanying change in the physical composition of the rock formation, or the appearance of fossils separated by a tremendous time gap. This is not accounted for in uniformitarianism. If the deposition had been uniform, as claimed, such disconformities should not have occurred. The perplexing occurrence of so-called ‘older fossils’ above ‘younger fossils’—which paleontologists try to account for by thrust faults, can much more readily be accounted for by accepting the occurrence of worldwide volcanic and seismic upheavals such as accompanied the Deluge. In fact, the mere presence of vast numbers of fossils is explainable only if plants and animals were suddenly inundated, trapped, and buried in moving masses of sediment. It is almost impossible to explain how organisms could have been transformed into fossils if they had simply perished and had remained exposed to the decaying process of air, sun, and bacteria.

"There are so-called fossil graveyards in which is often found a rich conglomeration of organisms. One such found in Eocene lignite deposits of the Geiseltal in central Germany, contains more than six thousand remains of vertebrate animals together with an even greater number of mollusks, insects, and plants. So well-preserved are many of these animals that it is still possible to study the contents of their stomachs. It is easy to imagine how these could have been deposited by the swirling and receding waters of a great flood, but not how this could have happened under uniformitarian conditions."—H.R. Siegler, Evolution or Degeneration—Which? (1972), pp. 78-79.

UNITY OF THE STRATA—Basic to evolutionary theory is the concept that each stratum was laid down during a period of millions of years while the other strata were laid down in other epochs or eras. All of the strata are said to have required two billion years to form.

In contrast, the evidence indicates that the fossils in each strata were laid down rapidly rather than slowly. But, in addition, there is also evidence that each stratum was deposited at about the same time as all the other strata!

The primary difference is that each layer has somewhat different fossils in it, but this too would easily be explained by a gradually rising flood that washed in, and then quickly buried great masses of plants and animals. One layer and then the next was rather quickly laid down by the Flood.

Two of the most important boundary points in the geologic column are the Paleozoic to Mesozoic, and the Mesozoic to Cenozoic.

Careful research by *Wiedmann in Germany has revealed that there is no observable time break between these, the two most obvious divisions in the geologic column!

While most evolutionists maintain that the geologic column slowly formed amid the peace and tranquility of uniformitarian ages, there are other evolutionists who declare that there must have been a succession of several catastrophes that accomplished the task. But *Wiedmann carefully analyzed the two principle boundaries in the column—and discovered that "no worldwide extinctions of species or spontaneous appearances of new species" occurred at these boundaries. This is important. The entire geologic column is an integral unit and was all rapidly laid down at about the same time.

Here are some additional reasons why this is so:

(1) Rapid or no Fossils. Each stratum had to be laid down rapidly, or fossils would not have resulted.

(2) Rapid or no Rocks. The physical structure and interconnections of the strata require rapid deposition in order for them to form into rocks.

(3) No Erosion between Strata. Each strata was laid directly over the one below it, since there is no trace of erosion between them. Each strata was formed continuously and rapidly, and then—with no time-lapse erosion in between—the next strata formed continuously and rapidly over that. And on and on it went.

(4) Layers not Worldwide. There are many "unconformities," where one stratum ends horizontally and another begins. But there is no worldwide unconformity; instead one stratum will gradually grade imperceptibly into another, which thereupon succeeds it with more continuous and rapid deposition, without a time break at any point.

(5) Generally no Clear Boundaries. There is rarely a clear physical boundary between strata formations.Generally they tend to merge and mingle with each other in a zone of considerable thickness.

STRATA SEQUENCE AND OVERTHRUSTS—If evolutionary theory were correct, each layer of the cake would be quietly set in place on top of the preceding one over a span of long ages.

But instead we find "disconformity" and "overthrusts."A "recent stratum" which should therefore be near the top, will be underneath several "older strata."

This can easily be explained by the turbulence of a single worldwide Flood which laid down all the strata within a relatively short time.

But evolutionary theory is totally baffled by such a situation. So its supporters have invented the theory of "overthrusts."As we mentioned in chapter 12, the Matterhorn—one of the highest and most prominent mountains in Switzerland—is supposed to have moved horizontally many miles from some distant place. Evolutionary theories about rock strata require such a hypothesis. Either the mountains pack up and move to other lands, or evolution dies a sickening death.

The entire Matterhorn rests on top of what is theorized as "younger strata," therefore it is said to have hiked over the hills to its present location. The same is true for the Appalachians, which climbed up out of the Atlantic onto the North American continent. They arrived before the Pilgrims!

But, in reality, overthrusts are but another effect of the Flood. For example, at one point, some land animals and plants were covered by Flood-borne sediments. Then, from some distant location, waters with fish were carried in and deposited in a pile of sediment above the land creatures. And so it went.

A related problem is that, although the very bottom stratum should always be the Cambrian,—in actuality, many different strata are found at the bottom!

How do you solve a problem like that? Amid the confusion of a worldwide deluge, and bursts of massive earth movements and hurricane winds, all kinds of strata patterns could occur. Flood theory can solve questions that evolutionary theory cannot answer.

FLOOD PREDICTIONS—If the Flood caused the sedimentary rock strata, with their billions of fossils, thenthe following points would be expected;—and, upon examination of the fossils in the strata—they all prove true:

(1) Animals living at the lowest levels would tend to be buried in the lowest strata.

(2) Creatures buried together—would tend to be buried with other animals that lived in the same region or ecological community.

(3) Hydrologic forces (the suck and drag of rapidly moving water) would tend to sort out creatures of similar forms. Because of lower hydraulic drag, those with the simplest shapes would tend to be buried first.

(4) Backboneless sea creatures (marine invertebrates), since they live on the sea bottom, would normally be found in the bottom strata.

(5) Fish would be found in higher strata since they can swim up close to the surface.

(6) Amphibians and reptiles would be buried higher than the fish, but as a rule, below the land animals.

(7) Few land plants or animals would be in the lower strata.

(8) The first land plants would be found where the amphibians were found.

(9) Mammals and birds would generally be found in higher levels than reptiles and amphibians.

(10) Because many animals tend to go in herds in time of danger, we would find herd animals buried together.

(11) In addition, the larger, stronger animals would tend to sort out into levels apart from the slower ones (tigers would not be found with hippopotamuses).

(12) Relatively few birds would be found in the strata, since they could fly to the highest points.

(13) Few humans would be found in the strata. They would be at the top, trying to stay afloat until they died; following which they would sink to the surface of the sediments and decompose.

In the above 13 points, we have a solid Flood explanation for what we find in the sequence of fossils in the geologic column.

Yet, lacking any other evidence to bring forward, it is that very sequence of fossils placement which evolutionists declare to be the primary evidence that animals have "evolved" from one another!

Recent (Holocene)—

Glaciers melt. Evidences of human civilization.

Pleistocene—The Flood waters conclude their receding from the continents. Fossils, strata, and petroleum are no longer being formed. The ice age begins.

Pliocene—The Flood has ended. First mountain building begins, as continents begin rising, ocean basins dropping, and oceans filling. If this had not occurred, everything today would be under water. Some strata forming continues.

Miocene—First large numbers of birds buried. First evidence of volcanic lava.

Oliogocene—First of the very agile monkeys and apes buried.

Eocene—First faster animals (such as horses) buried. No more slow animals (including dinosaurs).

Triassic—First strong land animals buried (slowest dinosaurs).

Mississipian—First land animals buried (slow ones, such as small reptiles).

Silurian—First land plants laid down.

Cambrian—Flood begins. Fossils and strata begin. Slowest creatures buried. But plants float up to higher levels.

Precambrian—Prior to the Flood. No sedementary strata or fossils.

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WORLDWIDE FLOOD—Ours is the water planet. We have 330 million cubic miles [2212 million km3] of it!Water covers 72 percent of our planet’s surface. Every cubic mile of seawater holds over 150 million tons [136 mt] of minerals. On the average, rain pours down on our planet at the rate of 1.5 tons [1,361 kg] a day. At the present time, there is 70 billion gallons [26,822 liters] of water for every person alive. The oceans of theworld are so vast and deep that if Earth had an absolutely level crust, the sea would form an envelope over 8,800 feet [26,822 dm] deep.

The antediluvian world had never seen rain before. But when it came, it really came. When the Genesis Flood began, the vast water canopy collapsed and "the floodgates of the sky were opened." Torrential rains fell for six weeks.

FLOOD STORIES—Races and tribes all over the world have, as part of their traditions, stories about a great flood of water that covered the whole earth. The event was so world-shattering and life-changing that, from parents to children, stories of that great upheaval passed down through the generations. Gradually, as mythologies developed, legends about this flood became part of them. These stories include various aspects of the Genesis account of the Flood:

"It has long been known that legends of a great flood, in which almost all men perished, are widely diffused over the world."—*George Frazer, Folklore in the Old Testament, Vol. 1 (1919), p. 105.

One survey of 120 tribal groups in North, Central, and South America disclosed flood traditions among each of them (*International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Vol. 2, p. 822).

(1) There was general wickedness among men.

(2) God saw that a flood was necessary.

(3) One family with eight members was protected.

(4) A giant boat was constructed.

(5) The family, along with animals and birds, went into the boat.

(6) The flood overwhelmed all those living on the earth.

(7) The deluge covered all the earth for a time.

(8) The boat landed in a high mountainous area.

(9) Two or three birds were sent out first.

(10) The people left the boat with all the animals.

(11) The survivors worshiped God for sparing them.

(12) A promise of divine favor was given that there would not be another worldwide flood of waters.

Another survey of ancient Flood literature and legends is discussed by B. Nelson in The Deluge Story in Stone(1968). In this tabulation, the stories and writings of 41 different tribal and national groups were given.

First, we will list these 41 groups, many of which were ancient races. ("A and B" indicate two different sub-groups; example: Fiji A and B.)

Assyria-Babylonia (A and B), Alaska, Andaman Island, Asia Minor, Aztecs, Brazil, Cherokee, China, Cree, Egypt, Esquimaux (Canada), Fiji (A and B), Greece, Hawaii, India (A and B), Italy, Lapland, Lenni Lenape, Lithuania, Leward Islands, Mandan, Michoacan, Nicaragua, Papagos (Mexico), Persia (A and B), Peru, Pimas, Russia, Scandinavia (A and B), Sumatra, Syria, Takoe, Thlinkut (A and B), Toltecks, Wales.

Second, we will list twelve points in their legends, according to the number of times each is included by each of the 41 groups.

Destruction by a flood—41 times.

Some humans saved—38 times.

A boat saved them—36 times.

Universal destruction by the flood—24 times.

One family was especially favored for protection— 15 times.

The flood was caused by man’s transgressions—14 times.

The flood came as a result of a divine decree—10 times.

Birds were sent out first—9 times.

Animals were saved by the boat also—8 times.

The survivors worship God after leaving the boat—7 times.

The boat landed in a high mountainous area—6 times.

After leaving the boat, God spoke favor to the saved—5 times.

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4. Problemi price o Nojevoj barci

Postoje brojni problemi sa pricom o Nojevoj barci:

- kako je Noje skupio zivotinje iz svih delova sveta?

Ko kaze da je morao da ide na kraj sveta da ih skupi, zivot je bujao pre potopa sve su zivele oko njega na primer, nije bilo severni juzni pol, nisu postojali drugi kontinenti vec je bio jedan kontinent.

- gde je smestio svu hranu za zivotinje sa delikatnim dijetama (eukaliptus za koale, bambus za pande, itd), hranu za zivotinje koje inace jedu ogromnu kolicinu hrane, za mesozdere i kako je obezbedio da se ta hrana ne pokvari tokom potopa?

Pre potopa nije bilo mesozdera, ne znamo da li su panda koala mravojed postojali pre potopa, bas kao civava pudlica itd. Noje je spasao osnovni par zivotinja.

- sta su zivotinje jele nakon potopa kad je sav biljni svet bio unisten (narocito mesozderi)?

Bilo je hrane na arci, zivotinje su mogle jos malo biti u stanju hibernacije. Mesozdera nije bilo pre potopa lav je spavao sa srnom, lepo pise u bibliji.

- kako su prezivele sve bakterije i virusi koji inace ubijaju ljude?

Ne znam nisam biolog.

- kako su se zivotinje nakon potopa rasporedile po Zemlji? (Kako je lenjivac stigao u Juznu Ameriku? Kako su puzevi dosli u Australiju?)

Ne znam sto bi ovo bio problem, kad i evolucionisti i kreacionisti se slazu da je bio jedan kontinent pa se razdvojio, samo je razlika u vremenu.

- kako je drveni brod preziveo dogadjaj koji je navodno rezao planine, tj. kako ga prvi nalet bujice, dok je jos bio na kopnu, nije razbio u paramparcad?

Brod je bio na vodi na ispod vode, danas ne postoji tako drvo od kog je bio pravljen taj brod, ne moze iskljuciit natprirodno iz natprirodnog potopa, na primer sto bi bog slao uragana na mesto gde se nalazi brod? Ili jednostavno brod je imao srece. Posto vama taj pojam nije stran. cista slucajnost.

- kako su sve vrste razvile genetsku raznovrsnost koju imaju danas ukoliko sve potpicu iz masovnog incesta koji se desio pre par hiljada godina?

Opet to ce ti odgovoriti neko strucniji.

- kako je od X vrsta zivotinja koje su se nalazile na Barci, za nekoliko hiljada godina nastalo nekoliko miliona vrsta koje danas zive na svetu (sto predstavlja zapravo super brzu evoluciju - nastanak nekoliko vrsta svakog dana)?

Kao i na ovo

- zasto danas ne vidjamo nastanak nekoliko vrsta svakog dana?

Sto bi morali da vidimo nastanak nekoliko vrsta svakog dana? ne vidimo ni evoluciju da se desava jer je jako spor proces ne?

- odakle je dosla i gde je nestala ogromna kolicina vode potrebna za Biblijski potop?

Ko kaze da je nestala, pogledak planetu zemlju 70 % je voda, kad bi iznivelisao nivo okeana i planine ,citava planeta bi bila 2 km pod vodom.

- kako su morske i recne vrste riba i sisara prezivele mesanje slatke i slane vode?

ne znamo koliko su bile slane vode pre potopa, sta ako nisu bile jako slane?

Napomene:

- s obzirom da kreacionisti zagovaraju ucenje kreacionizma u skolama u predmetima koji se bave naukom, ocekujem da odgovori ne ukljucuju natprirodna objasnjenja. Naravno da se na sve ovo moze odgovoriti da je svemocni bog to uradio svojom "magijom" ali ja nemam nameru da se raspravljam sa necijom verom.

Malo ti je cudna napomena, potop je bio natprirodni dogadjaj, ti pokusavas da ga objasnis prirodnim dogadjajem, iz uniformisticke perspektive.

Toliko za sad, da ne sirimo dalje pricu. Kao sto rekoh, ocekujem ovako i argumente/dokaze uz obrazlozenje u korist istinitosti biblijskog potopa.

Ovo su moji odgovori, ne znaci da su tacni, za detaljnije i pravilnije odgovore kazem ti imas u toj knjizi koju sam naveo

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Ako stvarno iskreno zelis odgovore na ova pitanja, svi odgovori se nalaze u knjizi "Dr D`on Vitkomb

Dr Henri Moris - Biblijski potop" ja nemogu ovde da prepisujem celu knjigu.

Vidim da si odgovorio na 4. a teme od 1. do 3. svakako nisu takve da je potrebno da prepises celu knjigu da bi odgovorio na njih...

Naravno, ne mogu i necu da te teram da odgovoris... kako god zelis...

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Ko kaze da je morao da ide na kraj sveta da ih skupi, zivot je bujao pre potopa sve su zivele oko njega na primer, nije bilo severni juzni pol, nisu postojali drugi kontinenti vec je bio jedan kontinent.

Pingvini nisu mogli da zive pored njega.

Polovi su morali da postoje, nemoj da se blamiras.

Na osnovu cega tvrdis da je u vreme Potopa postojao samo jedan kontinent?

Pre potopa nije bilo mesozdera, ne znamo da li su panda koala mravojed postojali pre potopa, bas kao civava pudlica itd. Noje je spasao osnovni par zivotinja.

"Osnovni par" je neka zamena za cuveno kreacionisticko "kinds"? Izbegavas da to definises?

Bilo je hrane na arci, zivotinje su mogle jos malo biti u stanju hibernacije. Mesozdera nije bilo pre potopa lav je spavao sa srnom, lepo pise u bibliji.

Ne razumem tvoj odgovor. Kakva hrana na barci, kakva hibernacija. Pitanje se odnosi na sledecu situaciju: barka se zaustavlja na Araratu iz nje izlaze zivotinje, svuda oko njih je blato. Sta jedu narednih godinu dana?

Teza da mesozderi pre potopa nisu jeli meso je zaista neozbiljna. Njihove vilice i digestivni trakt su takvi da ne mogu da prezive od biljaka.

Ne znam sto bi ovo bio problem, kad i evolucionisti i kreacionisti se slazu da je bio jedan kontinent pa se razdvojio, samo je razlika u vremenu.

Pa pitanje je kada se razdvojio, kojom brzinom se razdvajao i kojom brzinom su pojedine vrste uspele da stignu do Juzne Amerike i Australije. Prosto imate problem kratkog vremena (par hiljada godina) i zaista ogromnih razdaljina...

Brod je bio na vodi na ispod vode, danas ne postoji tako drvo od kog je bio pravljen taj brod, ne moze iskljuciit natprirodno iz natprirodnog potopa, na primer sto bi bog slao uragana na mesto gde se nalazi brod? Ili jednostavno brod je imao srece. Posto vama taj pojam nije stran. cista slucajnost.

Koliko je meni poznata ta prica, brod je napravljen na kopnu a bujica je takodje po istoj prici nadolazila brzo.

Sto bi morali da vidimo nastanak nekoliko vrsta svakog dana? ne vidimo ni evoluciju da se desava jer je jako spor proces ne?

Da, evolucija je veoma spor proces, medjutim vasa super-evolucija - nastanak nekoliko miliona vrsta iz nekoliko hiljada ili desetina hiljada vrsta za par hiljada godina je izuzetno brz proces.

Ko kaze da je nestala, pogledak planetu zemlju 70 % je voda, kad bi iznivelisao nivo okeana i planine ,citava planeta bi bila 2 km pod vodom.

U prici o potopu planeta nije izniveslisana, vec postoje planine.

ne znamo koliko su bile slane vode pre potopa, sta ako nisu bile jako slane?

Malo ti je cudna napomena, potop je bio natprirodni dogadjaj, ti pokusavas da ga objasnis prirodnim dogadjajem, iz uniformisticke perspektive.

Pa koristeci magiju sve moze da se objasni... bog je magicno skupio sve zivotinje na jedno mesto, magicno ih uspavao, magicno napravio da se mesozderi hrane biljkama, magicno spustao i dizao planine, razdvajao kontinente, pravio nove vrste iz "osnovnih", magicno obezbedio da Noje i njegova porodica prenesu sve stetne bakterije i viruse na dalje potomstvo bez da crnu, magicno obezbedio da brod prezivi bujicu koja je pravila kanjone, itd... sve moze da se "objasni" magijom... samo onda pricamo o bajkama a ne o necemu sto pretenduje da bude pandan geologiji i biologiji...

Ovo su moji odgovori, ne znaci da su tacni, za detaljnije i pravilnije odgovore kazem ti imas u toj knjizi koju sam naveo

Ok.

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evo par dokaza ili argumenata za za potop

Ocekivao sam ozbiljniji odgovor i relevantne dokaze a ne samo nepotkrepljene tvrdnje od kojih sam vecinu vec osporio na ovoj temi.

Ne vidim razlog da ovaj tekst posebno komentarisem, ne sadrzi u sebi nikakve dokaze za potop.

Jedino sto mi je zanimljivo je sto se navode predvidjanja a pomocu njih se najbolje testiraju hipoteze... pa da testiramo:

FLOOD PREDICTIONS—If the Flood caused the sedimentary rock strata, with their billions of fossils, thenthe following points would be expected;—and, upon examination of the fossils in the strata—they all prove true:

(1) Animals living at the lowest levels would tend to be buried in the lowest strata.

Hipoteza pada na prvom predvidjanju posto mnoge morske zivotinje nalazimo samo u srednjim i visim slojevima.

(2) Creatures buried together—would tend to be buried with other animals that lived in the same region or ecological community.

Sto nije nikakva pretpostavka potopa. Naprotiv, velika poplava moze da pomesa jedinke iz razlicitih oblasti. Upravo bez potopa ce jedinke biti pokopane tamo gde su i zivele.

(3) Hydrologic forces (the suck and drag of rapidly moving water) would tend to sort out creatures of similar forms. Because of lower hydraulic drag, those with the simplest shapes would tend to be buried first.

Potpuno besmislena tvrdnja. Ne znamo odakle bilo kome moze da padne na pamet ideja da ce struje u poplavi da sortiraju leseve po obliku. Ovo je vec sprdnja.

(4) Backboneless sea creatures (marine invertebrates), since they live on the sea bottom, would normally be found in the bottom strata.

Opet pada teorija jer morske beskicmenjake nalazimo u svim slojevima.

(5) Fish would be found in higher strata since they can swim up close to the surface.

(6) Amphibians and reptiles would be buried higher than the fish, but as a rule, below the land animals.

(7) Few land plants or animals would be in the lower strata.

(8) The first land plants would be found where the amphibians were found.

(9) Mammals and birds would generally be found in higher levels than reptiles and amphibians.

Da ne ponavljam svaki put da fosilni zapis ne izgleda kao sto je ovde opisano.

Takodje, sama ideja je debilna jer poplave ne redjaju sedimente onako kako ih nadju vec zamesaju sve sto povuku i spuste tamo gde se bujica smiri.

Takodje, ne postoji ni jedan razlog zasto bi sisare nalazili na visim slojevima od dinosaura. Mnogi dinosauri su agilniji od pojedinih sisara. Pterodaktile bi trebalo da nalazimo u potpuno istom sloju gde nalazimo i ptice (da je ovo tacno) a takodje, neletece ptice bi morali da nalazimo u nizim slojevima od letecih, sto takodje ne odgovara realnosti.

(10) Because many animals tend to go in herds in time of danger, we would find herd animals buried together.

Naprotiv, ovo je ocekivano bez poplave.

(11) In addition, the larger, stronger animals would tend to sort out into levels apart from the slower ones (tigers would not be found with hippopotamuses).

???

Sta je pisac hteo da kaze? Da snaznije zivotinje nece biti u istom sloju sa sporijim zivotinjama? I dat primer tigra i nilskog konja (koji je i snazniji i sporiji od tigra)?

(12) Relatively few birds would be found in the strata, since they could fly to the highest points.

(13) Few humans would be found in the strata. They would be at the top, trying to stay afloat until they died; following which they would sink to the surface of the sediments and decompose.

In the above 13 points, we have a solid Flood explanation for what we find in the sequence of fossils in the geologic column.

Yet, lacking any other evidence to bring forward, it is that very sequence of fossils placement which evolutionists declare to be the primary evidence that animals have "evolved" from one another!

Cisto blamiranje...

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Da dodam i par zanimljivih klipova:

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Evidence for global flood

In the past, scientists largely dismissed Noah's flood as a myth, or a local flood, as it was believed that there could not have been enough rainwater to cover the world as high as Mount Everest. Recent discoveries in plate tectonics and crustal physics have shown that a much flatter Earth could have easily been flooded, with the resultant volcanic and geologic activity altering the land surface. These details have demolished the main argument against a global flood, but the tag of "local flood" has remained because atheists do not want any evidence that supports the existence of an Almighty, Creator/God.

Here are over 100 evidences in support of a global flood, rather than a local one.

FROM LOGIC.........[12 reasons]

(1) For rain to fall for forty uninterrupted days on one localized area is currently close to impossible.

(2) A rainbow appeared for the first time after the flood, indicating a radical change in atmospheric conditions as a consequence of a cataclysmic event.

(3) The waters remained for over a year. This would not occur in a local flood.

(4) To be higher than the highest mountains, the flood could not have been local.

(5) To cover the mountains continually for 9 months, the flood could not have been local.

(6) The purpose of the flood was to destroy all human beings. This could only refer to a worldwide flood.

(7) If the flood was local, people living elsewhere in the world would have escaped.

(8) The enormous size of the ark (equivalent to the capacity of 500 railroad freight carriages) would hold much more than local species of animals.

(9) The purpose of the ark to "keep seed [species - NKJ] alive upon the face of the earth" is only rational if the flood was global.

(10) Noah and his family could have migrated to a locality away from the local area to be flooded. There would have been no need to spend 120 years building an ark.

(11) Many of the animals in the flooding area could have easily migrated to escape the deluge if the flood was local. There would have been no need to build an ark to provide them with a safe haven.

(12) If God made a promise based on a lie (ie. that the flood being local rather than global), then he can't be trusted to save us from our sins.

FROM SCIENCE....... [45 reasons]

(13) There is a worldwide tradition among natives of a global flood.

(14) According to current archaeological evidence, civilization appears to have originated in the Ararat/Babylon region.

(15) The genealogical records of many of the European kings can be traced back to Japheth, son of Noah.

(16) An analysis of population growth statistics confirms that there was zero population at the estimated time of the end of the flood. This indicates the global demise of humans by Noah's flood.

(17) Human palaeontological evidence exists even in the earliest geologic 'ages' (eg human footprints in Cambrian, Carboniferous, and Cretaceous rocks). If the layers of rock were laid down by a global flood and then interpreted as evolutionary long-ages, human remains and artefacts would appear to be in such positions.

(18) The most ancient human artefacts date to the post-flood era. This indicates that the earlier hardware could have been buried beyond reach by a huge flood.

(19) Calculations have shown that there is nearly the same amount of organic material present today, worldwide, as there would have been if all the fossils were still alive (Morris p:685). This indicates the demise of all living things in a single global event.

(20) Palaeontological evidence indicates that the early earth had a warm/humid climate. This is consistent with the destruction of the old atmosphere by the processes of a global flood as described in Genesis.

(21) The glacial period started very quickly. This would require a cataclysmic event such as a global flood to trigger such a rapid climatic change.

(22) Similar geologic formations exist in rocks of all ages (eg rifts, folds, faults, thrusts, etc.). These can just as easily be explained as being created in the same cataclysmic global event.

(23) Studies show that much of the world's folded beds of sediment have no compression fractures, indicating that they were contorted while they were still wet and soft. For this to occur on a global scale, and on sediment thousands of metres thick, it would have required a catastrophic global flood.

(24) Rocks of different geologic 'ages' have similar physical features indicating that they could have been created by a single worldwide event - such as a global flood.

(25) There is an absence of physical evidence that indicates a time change between rocks of 'successive ages'. Sedimentary rock layers worldwide appear to have been laid down very quickly, as by a global flood.

(26) Globally, there is an almost complete absence of any evidence of animal and plant root activity within the tiny layers of sediment. Slowly deposited layers should show this activity, flood deposits wouldn't.

(27) All types of rocks (eg limestone, shale, granite, etc) occur in all geologic 'ages'. This indicates a common formation on a global scale - the situation that would have been created by the mixing of sediment in a global flood.

(28) Many geological processes have a recent geological date. If the long-age evolutionary time scale is ignored, these processes would have occurred in the very recent past - ie. as a result of the flood cataclysm.

(29) Recent volcanic rocks are distributed widely. (see last point above)

(30) The uplift of the major mountain ranges are relatively young, based on evolutionary chronology. If the long-age evolutionary time scale is ignored, these processes would have occurred in the very recent past - ie as a result of the flood cataclysm.

(31) There is a lack of correlation between radiometric 'ages' and assumed palaeontological 'ages' (Morris p:686). A global flood could easily create an illusion of geologic 'ages'. The consequent conflict between dating methods confirms the illusion.

(32) Fossil 'graveyards' are found worldwide, and in rocks of all 'ages'. Only a catastrophic global flood could achieve this.

(33) The burial of fossil deposits worldwide had to have occurred in a catastrophic event. Only massive flooding could bury in such a fashion.

(34) Marine fossils can be found on the crests of mountains. Apart from mountain uplifting, this can also be explained as the marine animals being washed there and then buried. A global flood could do this.

(35) There is a worldwide distribution of most of the fossil types, indicating transportation on a global scale by a global flood.

(36) Fossils from different 'ages' are often found mixed. This indicates a huge mixing of animal bones that is not consistent with a local flood.

(37) Worldwide, fossils from different 'ages' are often found in the wrong order. This indicates a global mixing of fossils as a consequence of a global flood.

(38) Supposed evolutionary fossil sequences often parallel the ecological zonation that occurs today (Morris p:686). If a global flood mixed organisms from different areas, it would create the illusion of a fossil sequence over time.

(39) Dinosaurs and many other prehistoric creatures died out suddenly. A catastrophe such as a global flood could have produced this result.

(40) Polystrate fossils (viz. vertical fossil tree trunks) that are found worldwide indicate turbulent or rapid deposition. A global flood would be required to do this worldwide.

(41) Polystrate fossils also form when water-logged timber sinks in a large body of water. A year long global flood could produce worldwide polystrate fossils formed in this way.

(42) Animal tracks and other ephemeral markings (ripple-marks and raindrop imprints) have been preserved throughout the geological column. Rapid covering of these markings is required for this preservation worldwide - ie. by a global flood.

(43) Meteorites are basically absent from the geologic column. With the large number of meteorites hitting the earth each year, they should be very plentiful throughout the sedimentary rocks - unless much of the world's sedimentary rocks were laid down in one year.

(44) Sedimentary rocks contain fossil ripple-marks and raindrop imprints, but no hail imprints. A global flood (with associated rain), that was not caused by storms would not leave hail imprint marks.

(45) Some desert areas show evidence of 'recent' water bodies. Water from a recent global flood would remain in large pools (bodies of water) for some time before evaporating.

(46) There is evidence of a recent drastic rise in sea level. A global flood could easily have created this feature.

(47) Raised shorelines are found worldwide indicating a time when the world had a different sea level. A consistent interpretation of this is that a global flood altered the levels of the oceans and seas.

(48) Mountain-high water level marks found throughout the world are consistent with the recession of a global flood.

(49) River terraces are found worldwide. (Morris p:685)

(50) There is a universal occurrence of rivers in valleys too large for the present stream. Slow erosion over millions of years could not have created these valleys as the mountains would have eroded, keeping pace with the valley erosion. The drainage of global floodwaters from the land surface could easily create such wide valleys in a short period of time.

(51) Only modern sediments show any evidence of surface drainage systems. If the majority of the world's sedimentary rocks were laid down by a global flood there would not be any sign of drainage erosion except for the top layers eroded during the recession of the flood waters off the land.

(52) Hydrologic evidence points to the rapid deposition of sedimentary rock layers. Therefore, the thousand's of metres of sediment must have been deposited by a catastrophic global flood.

(53) Hydrologic evidence points to the world's sedimentary rocks being deposited in one continuous episode. All the layers could have been laid down by a single event, such as a global flood.

(54) Hydrologic experiments show that flowing sediment automatically settles out in distinct layers. Therefore, sedimentary rock layers can be just as easily explained as flood debris, as slow deposition.

(55) There is a worldwide occurrence of deep alluvial deposits and sedimentary rocks consistent with a huge global flood.

(56) There is a near-random deposition of formational sequences. (Morris p:685)

(57) Nowhere in the world is it possible to see the complete geologic column as a single structure. It is always found in bits and pieces, and mostly with pieces missing. Globally, a worldwide flood could create the illusion of a geologic column.

(58) The oldest organisms still alive on Earth today, the Californian Redwoods, Sequoias and Bristlecone Pines, are around 3,000-4,000 years old. Nothing is older that the date of Noah's flood.

FROM THE GENESIS NARRATIVE........ [47 reasons]

(59) The account in Genesis speaks of the flood being a universal event at least thirty times.

(60) God promised three times not to "smite [destroy - NKJ] every living thing" by a flood (Gen 8:21; 9:11; 9:15). Three occurrences in Scripture indicates absolute truth.

(61) Following the flood, Eden was no longer discussed geographically. If it was a local flood, its general whereabouts would still be known. The total obliteration of the whole earth's geography is therefore inferred - such as by a global flood.

(62) The "waters above the firmament [earth - NKJ]" would not have been localised into a small area. (Gen 1:7)

(63) No rain on the earth before the flood speaks of a worldwide condition. (Gen 2:5)

(64) The whole earth was watered by a mist, prior to the flood. (Gen 2:6)

(65) The dawn of civilization had a high civilization (Genesis chapter 4). This was wiped out and did not recover for a long time.

(66) The long life spans of the pre-diluvial people indicates an entirely different biosphere. (Gen 5:5; 5:8; 5:11; etc)

(67) The subsequent decline in life span following the flood indicates a radically different biosphere. (Gen 23:1; 25:7)

(68) God described the pre-flood people as universally evil (Gen 6:5). He never described the post-flood people as universally evil, so something universal (ie. worldwide) must have happened to weed it out.

(69) Mankind had multiplied all over the earth (Gen 6:1), so the flood had to be global to destroy them all.

(70) God was sorry that he created all living creatures, not just a localised population of animal creatures. (Gen 6:6-7)

(71) The whole earth was seen by God as corrupt. (Gen 6:11-12)

(72) God decided to destroy the whole earth. (Gen 6:13)

(73) Everything that had breath was to die. (Gen 6:17)

(74) The purpose of the ark was to keep two of every breathing animal (ie. worldwide species) alive. (Gen 6:19)

(75) Two of every kind of animal and bird came to Noah, not just local fauna. (Gen 6:20)

(76) Noah had to collect samples of all food eaten, not just local foodstuffs. (Gen 6:21)

(77) God wanted the ark "to keep seed [species - NKJ] alive upon the face of the earth". (Gen 7:3)

(78) God promised to destroy every living thing on the earth. (Gen 7:4)

(79) The Hebrew word for flood "mabbul" only refers to Noah's flood, so it must have been different to all other floods. (Gen 7:10)

(80) All the "fountains of the great deep" broke up in one incident. (Gen 7:11)

(81) The "fountains of the great deep" would not have affected a simple, local land-based flood. (Gen 7:11)

(82) The opening of the windows of heaven (if this refers to "the waters above the firmament") would had a global impact. (Gen 7:11)

(83) The double superlative, "all the high mountains under all the heavens" ["all the high hills under the whole heaven" - NKJ], indicates a global covering. (Gen 7:19)

(84) The highest mountains were covered by 15 cubits (6.75m) of water. (Gen 7:20)

(85) The Hebrew word, "kasah", used to mean that the mountains were covered has a meaning of "overwhelming". (Gen 7:20)

(86) Every human died on the whole earth. (Gen 7:21)

(87) All living things on dry land, with "nephesh" life in them, died. (Gen 7:22)

(88) Every living thing on the earth was destroyed. (Gen 7:23)

(89) The floodwater remained at maximum height for 5 months. (Gen 7:24)

(90) The "fountains of the deep" were open for 5 months. (Gen 8:2)

(91) The "windows of heaven" were open for 5 months. (Gen 8:2)

(92) The floodwaters took 5 months to drain off the land. (Gen 8:3)

(93) The ark floated above the mountains for 5 months. (Gen 8:4)

(94) The waters receded for 2.5 months before the mountain tops were visible. (Gen 8:5)

(95) The dove couldn't find solid ground until the water had receded for 4 months. (Gen 8:9)

(96) Plants did not grow for 9 months. (Gen 8:11)

(97) Noah, his family, and the animals were in the ark for over a year. (Gen 8:14)

(98) All current life came out of the ark. (Gen 8:19)

(99) God promised that he would not destroy all living things again in the same way. (Gen 8:21)

(100) The current seasonal conditions date from the end of the flood (Gen 8:22), indicating a radical change from the previous environment.

(101) God commanded Noah and his family to breed and fill the earth with people again. (Gen 9:1)

(102) A flood will not be used by God to destroy the earth again. (Gen 9:11)

(103) The earth was re-populated from Noah's family. (Gen 9:19)

(104) Everyone spoke the same language after the flood (Gen 11:1), indicating decent from a single ancestor.

(105) Everyone lived in the same area after the flood. (Gen 11:9)

FROM ELSEWHERE IN SCRIPTURE...... [9 reasons]

(106) The floodwaters overturned the earth. (Job 12:15)

(107) The floodwaters covered the whole earth. (Is 54:9)

(108) The flood took all people off the face of the earth. (Matt 24:39) - Jesus talking

(109) The flood destroyed all humans. (Luke 17:27) - Jesus talking

(110) The whole world was condemned. (Heb 11:7)

(111) God destroyed the old world. (II Peter 2:5)

(112) God flooded the whole world. (II Peter 2:5)

(113) The Greek word for flood, "kataklusmos", is only used to describe Noah's flood. This indicates that it was vastly different from any other flood. (II Peter 2:5)

(114) The old world perished by flood. (II Peter 3:6)

REFERENCES

• H.M. Morris (1967) "The Genesis Record", Baker Book House: Grand Rapids (USA), p:683-686
  
• L Vardiman (1996) "Sea-Floor Sediment and the Age of the Earth", Institute of Creation Research: El Cajon (USA), p:4-5
  
• A McIntosh (1997) "Genesis for Today", DayOne Pub: Epsom (UK), p:166-170
  
• B. Cooper (1995) "After The Flood - The early post-flood history of Europe traced back to Noah", New Wine Press: Chichester (UK)
  
• J. Mackay (1992) "An Evening at Oxford: The evidence for Noah's Flood", Creation Research Centre: Capalba (Qld) - video tape
  
• (see also - B.C. Nelson (1968) "The Deluge Story in Stone: A history of the flood theory in geology", Bethany Fellowship Inc. Pub: Minneapolis (Minnesota, USA)