10 Pitanja ateiste na koja svaki hrišćanin mora da odgovori?

[grigorije22]

А сви ти историчари које си набројао су живели после Исуса, не у његово време, и могли су да пишу само из "друге руке".   

Sa istorijske tacke gledista ovo je irelevantno, oni su koristili nezavisne ne biblijske izvore tako da njihovo

pisanje predstavlja potvrdni dokaz za Hristovo postojanje. Ti istoricari su pisali u prvom veku i to je bitno

cak sta vise sa aspekta istorijske nauke potrebno je da prodje odredjena vremenska distanca kada se pise

o neki dogadjajima. Koliko recimo ima istoricara koji nisu ziveli u vreme Drugog svetskog rata pa pisu

naucne radove i knjige o toj temi

[пинхас]

Овде си копипејстовао и текстове који нису Талмуд већ из каснијег времена. Мајмонидес јесте писао о хришћанима и Исусу али то је био већ 11. или 12. век, кад су хришћани већ увелико били главни непријатељ и опасност по Јевреје.

Колико си се ти потрудио, толико ћу и ја. Ставићу одговор на енглеском, па ти читај. Укратко, ти Исуси о којима пише Талмуд нису ваш Исус, живели су 100 година пре или после.

Passage #1: Ben Stada

Talmud Shabbat 104b, Sanhedrin 67a

It is taught: R. Eliezer told the sages: Did not Ben Stada bring witchcraft with him from Egypt in a cut that was on his skin?  They said to him: He was a fool and you cannot bring proof from a fool.

Ben Stada is Ben Pandira.

R. Chisda said: The husband was Stada and the lover was Pandira.

[No,] the husband was Pappos Ben Yehudah and the mother was Stada.

[No,] the mother was Miriam the women's hairdresser [and was called Stada].  As we say in Pumbedita: She has turned away [stat Da] from her husband.

Summary

What we see from here is that there was a man named Ben Stada who was considered to be a practicer of black magic.  His mother was named Miriam and also called Stada.  His father was named Pappos Ben Yehudah.  Miriam (Stada) had an affair with Pandira from which Ben Stada was born.

Proof

Some historians claim that Ben Stada, also known as Ben Pandira, was Jesus.  His mother's name was Miriam which is similar to Mary.  Additionally, Miriam was called a women's hairdresser, "megadla nashaia" [for this translation, see R. Meir Halevi Abulafia, Yad Rama, Sanhedrin ad. loc.].  The phrase "Miriam megadla nashaia" sounds similar to Mary Magdalene, a well-known New Testament figure.

Problems

1. Mary Magdalene was not Jesus' mother.  Neither was Mary a hairdresser.

2. Jesus' step-father was Joseph.  Ben Stada's step-father was Pappos Ben Yehudah.

3. Pappos Ben Yehudah is a known figure from other places in talmudic literature.  The Mechilta Beshalach (Vayehi ch. 6) has him discussing Torah with Rabbi Akiva and Talmud Berachot 61b has Pappos Ben Yehudah being captured and killed by Romans along with Rabbi Akiva.  Rabbi Akiva lived during the second half of the first century and the first half of the second century.  He died in the year 134.  If Pappos Ben Yehudah was a contemporary of Rabbi Akiva's, he must have been born well after Jesus' death and certainly could not be his father.

Passage #2: Yeshu

Talmud Sanhedrin 107b, Sotah 47a

What of R. Yehoshua Ben Perachiah?

When John [Hyrcanus] the king killed the rabbis, R. Yehoshua Ben Perachiah [and Yeshu] went to Alexandria of Egypt.  When there was peace, Shimon Ben Shetach sent to him "From me [Jerusalem] the holy city to you Alexandria of Egypt.  My husband remains in your midst and I sit forsaken."

[R. Yehoshua Ben Perachiah] left and arrived at a particular inn and they showed him great respect.  He said: How beautiful is this inn [Achsania, which also means innkeeper].

[Yeshu] said: Rabbi, she has narrow eyes.

[R. Yehoshua Ben Perachiah] said to him: Wicked one, this is how you engage yourself?

[R. Yehoshua Ben Perachiah] sent out four hundred trumpets and excommunicated him.

[Yeshu] came before [R. Yehoshua Ben Perachiah] many times and said: Accept me.  But [R. Yehoshua Ben Perachiah] paid him no attention.

One day [R. Yehoshua Ben Perachiah] was reciting Shema [during which one may not be interrupted].  [Yeshu] came before him.  He was going to accept [Yeshu] and signalled to [Yeshu] with his hand.  [Yeshu]  thought that [R. Yehoshua Ben Perachiah] was repelling him.  He went, hung a brick, and bowed down to it.

[Yeshu] said to [R. Yehoshua Ben Perachiah]: You taught me that anyone who sins and causes others to sin is not given the opportunity to repent.

And the master said: Yeshu {the Notzri} practiced magic and deceive and led Israel astray.

Background and Summary

Note that historians differ on the exact years of these events.  For simplicity, we will assume the latest possible dates as suggested by Gershon Tannenbaum [Jewish Time Line Encyclopedia, p. 87].

John Hyrcanus was a successful king and soldier.  During a banquet celebrating his victories in 93 BCE, some Pharisee rabbis offended him and he was convinced by Sadducee leaders to try to kill every Pharisee rabbi [Hyman, vol. II pp. 691-692, 766].  Some rabbis, such as R. Yehoshua Ben Perachiah and his student Yeshu, fled to Alexandria outside of John Hyrcanus's reach [Hyman vol. II pp. 647, 692].  Shimon Ben Shetach, however, was hidden in Jerusalem by his sister, Salome Alexandra, who was John Hyrcanus's daughter-in-law [Hyman, vol. II pp. 647, 692, 766, vol. III pp. 1212-1213].  The extremely diverse religious population of Palestine, full of sects such as the Essenes, Kumrans, and numerous other groups, was temporarily devoid of any public Pharisee leaders.

By the year 91 BCE, John Hyrcanus and his sons Antigonus and Aristobulos had died and his third son Alexander Janneus became king.  Even though Alexander Janneus was an ardent Sadducee, his wife convinced him to appoint his Pharisaic brother-in-law, Shimon Ben Shetach, to the Sanhedrin, then dominated by Sadducees.  Slowly, over the course of a number of years, Shimon Ben Shetach outshone his Sadducee opponents in the Sanhedrin and appointed his Pharisaic students as members [Hyman, vol. II pp. 766-767, vol. III pp. 1213-1214].

By the year 80 BCE it was finally safe for the Pharisee rabbis to quietly return and Shimon Ben Shetach sent a cryptic note to his mentor, R. Yehoshua Ben Perachiah, encouraging him to return [Hyman, vol. II pp. 647-648, vol. III pp. 1213-1214].

Some 50 to 60 years after the great Pharisaic victory of the Hasmoneans, in which Pharisees rebelled against the Greek-Syrians and gained the monarchy, these Pharisee rabbis returned to a country full of heretical sects that had either integrated aspects of Hellenist paganism into their religion or had, in an attempt to repel all unproven influence, rejected the traditions of the rabbis.  The Pharisees who remembered the prominence in which they had so recently been held were now witnesses to the disintegration of their religious society.

While returning, Yeshu misunderstood one of his teacher's remarks and said something that demonstrated that he was interested in and looking at married women.  As sexual promiscuity was a sign of many of the Hellenist sects, R. Yehoshua Ben Perachiah suspected his student of being yet another leader influenced by Hellenism and had him excommunicated [this hasty conclusion was condemned by the Talmud a few lines before our passage].  After many attempts by Yeshu to reconcile with his mentor, R. Yehoshua Ben Perachiah was finally ready.  However, Yeshu approached him while he was reciting Shema, the most important part of the morning prayer during which he could not stop to speak.  He motioned to Yeshu with his hand which was misinterpreted as a signal to go away.  Yeshu finally gave up and fulfilled his teacher's suspicion.  He adopted a pagan religion and went on to create his own sect of Judaism and lead many Jews astray.

Proof

Some historians note some similarities here between Yeshu and Jesus.  Most notably, in one manuscript of the Talmud he is called Yeshu the Notzri which could be rendered (with only a little difficulty) Jesus the Nazarene.

Problems

1. Yeshu lived about a century before Jesus.

2. Only one of the approximately four distinct manuscripts available have the title HaNotzri (possibly, the Nazarene).  None of the other manuscripts contain that title which make it suspect as a later interpolation, as medieval commentators suggest [cf. Menachem HaMeiri, Beit Habechirah, Sotah ad. loc.].

3. Notzri does not necessarily mean Nazarene.  It is actually a biblical term (Jeremiah 4:16).  While centuries later it was undoubtedly used to refer to Christians in the form of Notzrim or Netzarim, it could have been a term used to refer to many strong communities.  The name "Ben Netzar" was used by the Talmud to refer to the famous chief of robbers Odenathus of Palmyra [see Marcus Jastrow's Dictionary p. 930]

4. The name Yeshu alone could have been common.  We know that the name Jesus was common [see Collossians 4:11 and above].

5. Other than the name, nothing in the story fits anything we know about Jesus.

Passage #3: Trial

Talmud Sanhedrin 67a

It is taught: For all others liable for the death penalty [except for the enticer to idolatry] we do not hide witnesses.  How do they deal with [the enticer]?  They light a lamp for him in the inner chamber and place witnesses in the outer chamber so that they can see and hear him while he cannot see or hear them.  One says to him "Tell me again what you said to me in private" and he tells him.  He says "How can we forsake our G-d in heaven and worship idolatry?"  If he repents, good.  If he says "This is our obligation and what we must do" the witnesses who hear him from outside bring him to the court and stone him.  And so they did to Ben Stada in Lud and hung him on the eve of Passover.

Summary

This passage discusses how an enticer to idolatry, one of the worst religious criminals (see Deuteronomy 13:7-12), was caught.  The Talmud then continues and says that this was the method used to catch the notorious Ben Stada.

Proof

Again we see Ben Stada.  Above we were told that he performed witchcraft and we are now told that he was an idolater as well.  The connection to Jesus is that Ben Stada is connected to Jesus in the passage above and that he was executed on the eve of Passover.  The Gospel of John (19:14) has Jesus being executed on the eve of Passover.

Problems

1. The same problems above connecting Ben Stada to Jesus apply here as well, including his living almost a century after Jesus.

2. Ben Stada was stoned by a Jewish court and not crucified by the Roman government like Jesus.

3. The Synoptic Gospels say that Jesus was executed on Passover itself (Matthew 26:18-20; Mark 14:16-18; Luke 22:13-15) and not the eve of Passover.

4. Jesus was not crucified in Lud.

Passage #4: Execution

Talmud Sanhedrin 43a

It is taught: On the eve of Passover they hung Yeshu and the crier went forth for forty days beforehand declaring that "[Yeshu] is going to be stoned for practicing witchcraft, for enticing and leading Israel astray.  Anyone who knows something to clear him should come forth and exonerate him."  But no one had anything exonerating for him and they hung him on the eve of Passover.

Ulla said: Would one think that we should look for exonerating evidence for him?  He was an enticer and G-d said (Deuteronomy 13:9) "Show him no pity or compassion, and do not shield him."

Yeshu was different because he was close to the government.

Summary

Here we have the story of the execution of Yeshu.  Like Ben Stada, he was also executed on the eve of Passover.  Before executing him, the court searched for any witnesses who could clear his name, as was normally done before any execution.  Ulla, however, questioned this practice.  An enticer, due to the biblical mandate not to be merciful, should not be afforded this normal consideration.  The Talmud answers that Yeshu was different.  Because of his government connections, the court tried to search for any reason not to execute him and upset the government.

Proof

Again we see Yeshu.  All of the proofs from above connecting Yeshu to Jesus apply here as well.  Additionally, the execution on the eve of Passover is another connection to Jesus as above with Ben Stada.

Problems

1. As mentioned above with Ben Stada, the Synoptic Gospels have Jesus being executed on Passover itself and not the eve of Passover.

2. As above, Yeshu lived a century before Jesus.

3. Yeshu was executed by a Jewish court and not by the Romans.  During Yeshu's time, the reign of Alexander Janneus, the Jewish courts had the power to execute but had to be careful because the courts were ruled by the Pharisees while the king was a Sadducee.  It seems clear why the courts would not want to unneccesarily upset the monarch by executing a friend of his.  During the Roman occupation of Jesus' time, there is no indication that the Jewish courts had the right to execute criminals.

3. There is no indication from the New Testament that Jesus had friends in the government.

Passage #5: Disciples

Talmud Sanhedrin 43a

It is taught: Yeshu had five disciples - Matai, Nekai, Netzer, Buni, and Todah.

They brought Matai [before the judges].  He said to them: Will Matai be killed?  It is written (Psalm 42:2) "When [=Matai] shall (I) come and appear before G-d."

They said to him: Yes, Matai will be killed as it is written (Psalm 41:5) "When [=Matai] shall (he) die and his name perish."

They brought Nekai.  He said to them: Will Nekai be killed?  It is written (Exodus 23:7) "The innocent [=Naki] and the righteous you shall not slay."

They said to him: Yes, Nekai will be killed as it is written (Psalm 10:8) "In secret places he slay the innocent [=Naki]."

They brought Netzer.  He said to them: Will Netzer be killed?  It is written (Isaiah 11:1) "A branch [=Netzer] shall spring up from his roots."

They said to him:  Yes, Netzer will be killed as  it is written (Isaiah 14:19) "You are cast forth out of your grave like an abominable branch [=Netzer]."

They brought Buni.  He said to them: Will Buni be killed?  It is written (Exodus 4:22) "My son [=Beni], my firstborn, Israel."

They said to him:  Yes, Buni will be killed as it is written (Exodus 4:23) "Behold, I slay your son [=Bincha] your firstborn."

They brought Todah.  He said to them: Will Todah be killed?  It is written (Psalm 100:1) "A Psalm for thanksgiving [=Todah]."

They said to him:  Yes, Todah will be killed as it is written (Psalm 50:23) "Whoever sacrifices thanksgiving [=Todah] honors me."

Summary

Five of Yeshu's disciples were brought before a court, tried for the crime against G-d and society of idolatry, and executed according to biblical law.  This passages presents each disciple cleverly bringing a biblical verse in an attempt to exonerate himself and the court responding likewise.

Proof

The name Yeshu is used as above.  The additional proof this passage provides is that Matai is the Hebrew equivalent of Matthew, one of Jesus' disciples.

Problems

1. The same problems above connecting Yeshu to Jesus apply here.

2. Of the five disciples, only one is recognized.  What of the other four?

3. The name Matai seems like a nickname or Aramaic equivalent of Matityahu, which was a known Jewish name in that time period.  It was probably a common name, considering the high esteem in which the patriarch of the Hasmonean dynasty, Matityahu, was held by the common people.  Some manuscripts have the name of R. Yehoshua Ben Perachiah's famous colleague as Matai from Arbel [cf. R. Shimon Ben Tzemach Duran, Magen Avot, ed. Zeini (Jerusalem:2000) p. 31].

Passage #6: The Student

Tosefta Chullin 2:23

It once happened that R. Elazar ben Damah was bitten by a snake and Ya'akov of the village Sechania came to heal him in the name of Yeshu ben Pandira, but R. Yishmael did not allow him.

Proof

Here we see the only place in which the names Yeshu and Ben Pandira are connected.

[пинхас]

А сви ти историчари које си набројао су живели после Исуса, не у његово време, и могли су да пишу само из "друге руке".   

Sa istorijske tacke gledista ovo je irelevantno, oni su koristili nezavisne ne biblijske izvore tako da njihovo

pisanje predstavlja potvrdni dokaz za Hristovo postojanje. Ti istoricari su pisali u prvom veku i to je bitno

cak sta vise sa aspekta istorijske nauke potrebno je da prodje odredjena vremenska distanca kada se pise

o neki dogadjajima. Koliko recimo ima istoricara koji nisu ziveli u vreme Drugog svetskog rata pa pisu

naucne radove i knjige o toj temi

Ма иди, независне небиблијске изворе? Да нису имали снимке распећа? Најстарији од њих је рођен 30 година после наводне смрти Исуса. Они су само могли да слушају легенде раширене међу нејеврејским хришћанима којих је у то време већ било много.

[Ратко :(]

heaven !

[Natasa.]

heaven !

Da li je  0110_hahaha  greengrin :cheesy: ?

[Grizzly Adams]

heaven !

Da li je  0110_hahaha  greengrin :cheesy: ?

Имамо ли избора?

[grigorije22]

А сви ти историчари које си набројао су живели после Исуса, не у његово време, и могли су да пишу само из "друге руке".   

Sa istorijske tacke gledista ovo je irelevantno, oni su koristili nezavisne ne biblijske izvore tako da njihovo

pisanje predstavlja potvrdni dokaz za Hristovo postojanje. Ti istoricari su pisali u prvom veku i to je bitno

cak sta vise sa aspekta istorijske nauke potrebno je da prodje odredjena vremenska distanca kada se pise

o neki dogadjajima. Koliko recimo ima istoricara koji nisu ziveli u vreme Drugog svetskog rata pa pisu

naucne radove i knjige o toj temi

Ма иди, независне небиблијске изворе? Да нису имали снимке распећа? Најстарији од њих је рођен 30 година после наводне смрти Исуса. Они су само могли да слушају легенде раширене међу нејеврејским хришћанима којих је у то време већ било много.

Prvo nisu nikakve legende u pitanju objavu rane crkve da je Hristos vaskrsao mozemo da datiramo cak

na 9 godina od dogadjaja. Poslanice apostola Pavla su nastale 20 godina posle dogadjaja, jevadjelja su nastala

opet u prvom veku dok je jos bilo zivih svedoka. Legende ne mogu tako brzo da se razvijaju potreban je odredjeni vremenski period. Ne postoje legendarni elementi u jevadjeljima bas zato sto su nastala u prvom veku,

dok recimo u apokrifnim srecemo legendarne elemete upravo zato jer su ona nastala u 2 veku kada vise nije bilo

zivih ocevidaca

[Natasa.]

heaven !

Da li je  0110_hahaha  greengrin :cheesy: ?

Имамо ли избора?

Kako to mislis?

[пинхас]

А сви ти историчари које си набројао су живели после Исуса, не у његово време, и могли су да пишу само из "друге руке".   

Sa istorijske tacke gledista ovo je irelevantno, oni su koristili nezavisne ne biblijske izvore tako da njihovo

pisanje predstavlja potvrdni dokaz za Hristovo postojanje. Ti istoricari su pisali u prvom veku i to je bitno

cak sta vise sa aspekta istorijske nauke potrebno je da prodje odredjena vremenska distanca kada se pise

o neki dogadjajima. Koliko recimo ima istoricara koji nisu ziveli u vreme Drugog svetskog rata pa pisu

naucne radove i knjige o toj temi

Ма иди, независне небиблијске изворе? Да нису имали снимке распећа? Најстарији од њих је рођен 30 година после наводне смрти Исуса. Они су само могли да слушају легенде раширене међу нејеврејским хришћанима којих је у то време већ било много.

Prvo nisu nikakve legende u pitanju objavu rane crkve da je Hristos vaskrsao mozemo da datiramo cak

na 9 godina od dogadjaja. Poslanice apostola Pavla su nastale 20 godina posle dogadjaja, jevadjelja su nastala

opet u prvom veku dok je jos bilo zivih svedoka. Legende ne mogu tako brzo da se razvijaju potreban je odredjeni vremenski period. Ne postoje legendarni elementi u jevadjeljima bas zato sto su nastala u prvom veku,

dok recimo u apokrifnim srecemo legendarne elemete upravo zato jer su ona nastala u 2 veku kada vise nije bilo

zivih ocevidaca

Ко су ти живи сведоци? Павле? Не, он никад није видео Исуса. 11 апостола? Далеко више Хрвата тврди да је видело Девицу Марију у Међугорју.

Ја сам већ писао на овом форуму о огромним разликама и грешкама у јеванђељима, што и није чудо кад се узме у обзир да су написана неколико деценија после наводних догађаја. Једноставно, свако је имао своју верзију.

[пинхас]

heaven !

Da li je  0110_hahaha  greengrin :cheesy: ?

Имамо ли избора?

Наравно да имамо. Нема потребе да било ко умире за твоје грехе.

[Ратко :(]

heaven !

Da li je  0110_hahaha  greengrin :cheesy: ?

И то не сломивши печат на гробу.

[Captain]

А сви ти историчари које си набројао су живели после Исуса, не у његово време, и могли су да пишу само из "друге руке".    

Sa istorijske tacke gledista ovo je irelevantno, oni su koristili nezavisne ne biblijske izvore tako da njihovo

pisanje predstavlja potvrdni dokaz za Hristovo postojanje. Ti istoricari su pisali u prvom veku i to je bitno

cak sta vise sa aspekta istorijske nauke potrebno je da prodje odredjena vremenska distanca kada se pise

o neki dogadjajima. Koliko recimo ima istoricara koji nisu ziveli u vreme Drugog svetskog rata pa pisu

naucne radove i knjige o toj temi

Ма иди, независне небиблијске изворе? Да нису имали снимке распећа? Најстарији од њих је рођен 30 година после наводне смрти Исуса. Они су само могли да слушају легенде раширене међу нејеврејским хришћанима којих је у то време већ било много.

Prvo nisu nikakve legende u pitanju objavu rane crkve da je Hristos vaskrsao mozemo da datiramo cak

na 9 godina od dogadjaja. Poslanice apostola Pavla su nastale 20 godina posle dogadjaja, jevadjelja su nastala

opet u prvom veku dok je jos bilo zivih svedoka. Legende ne mogu tako brzo da se razvijaju potreban je odredjeni vremenski period. Ne postoje legendarni elementi u jevadjeljima bas zato sto su nastala u prvom veku,

dok recimo u apokrifnim srecemo legendarne elemete upravo zato jer su ona nastala u 2 veku kada vise nije bilo

zivih ocevidaca

Ко су ти живи сведоци? Павле? Не, он никад није видео Исуса. 11 апостола? Далеко више Хрвата тврди да је видело Девицу Марију у Међугорју.

Ја сам већ писао на овом форуму о огромним разликама и грешкама у јеванђељима, што и није чудо кад се узме у обзир да су написана неколико деценија после наводних догађаја. Једноставно, свако је имао своју верзију.

Svi Proroci iz starih vremena od Mojsija pa nadalje, takodje i Apostoli (ukljucujuci i Svetog Pavla) i ostali ocevici svjedoce za Hrista, i takodje i Crkva u naredno vrijeme i vremena.

[Grizzly Adams]

heaven !

Da li je  0110_hahaha  greengrin :cheesy: ?

Имамо ли избора?

Kako to mislis?

Па мислим, ако се удубимо мало у тему, наше постојање на овом свету је парадокс. Ми смо на овом свету заробљеници, боље речено логораши у реду за смрт. Једина шанса за живот нам је нада у васкрсење и једини који нам то нуди јесте Исус из Назарета. Замисли сада логораше у Аушвицу који су чули причу да је један успео да побегне из логора, па онда седну да филозофирају о томе "да ли је то истина". Потпуно је апсурдно да они, имајући у виду своје стање, расправљају о томе да ли је то истина или не. Њима је то једина шанса и једина нада. Исто важи за све нас. Ми никакву наду на овом свету намамо осим Исуса Христа који је устао из мртвих.

[Natasa.]

heaven !

Da li je  0110_hahaha  greengrin :cheesy: ?

Имамо ли избора?

Kako to mislis?

Па мислим, ако се удубимо мало у тему, наше постојање на овом свету је парадокс. Ми смо на овом свету заробљеници, боље речено логораши у реду за смрт. Једина шанса за живот нам је нада у васкрсење и једини који нам то нуди јесте Исус из Назарета. Замисли сада логораше у Аушвицу који су чули причу да је један успео да побегне из логора, па онда седну да филозофирају о томе "да ли је то истина". Потпуно је апсурдно да они, имајући у виду своје стање, расправљају о томе да ли је то истина или не. Њима је то једина шанса и једина нада. Исто важи за све нас. Ми никакву наду на овом свету намамо осим Исуса Христа који је устао из мртвих.

Ah ta covekova tuga zbog prolaznosti i zelja za vecnoscu...prosto poeticno...

[brana]

А сви ти историчари које си набројао су живели после Исуса, не у његово време, и могли су да пишу само из "друге руке".   

Sa istorijske tacke gledista ovo je irelevantno, oni su koristili nezavisne ne biblijske izvore tako da njihovo

pisanje predstavlja potvrdni dokaz za Hristovo postojanje. Ti istoricari su pisali u prvom veku i to je bitno

cak sta vise sa aspekta istorijske nauke potrebno je da prodje odredjena vremenska distanca kada se pise

o neki dogadjajima. Koliko recimo ima istoricara koji nisu ziveli u vreme Drugog svetskog rata pa pisu

naucne radove i knjige o toj temi

Ма иди, независне небиблијске изворе? Да нису имали снимке распећа? Најстарији од њих је рођен 30 година после наводне смрти Исуса. Они су само могли да слушају легенде раширене међу нејеврејским хришћанима којих је у то време већ било много.

Prvo nisu nikakve legende u pitanju objavu rane crkve da je Hristos vaskrsao mozemo da datiramo cak

na 9 godina od dogadjaja. Poslanice apostola Pavla su nastale 20 godina posle dogadjaja, jevadjelja su nastala

opet u prvom veku dok je jos bilo zivih svedoka. Legende ne mogu tako brzo da se razvijaju potreban je odredjeni vremenski period. Ne postoje legendarni elementi u jevadjeljima bas zato sto su nastala u prvom veku,

dok recimo u apokrifnim srecemo legendarne elemete upravo zato jer su ona nastala u 2 veku kada vise nije bilo

zivih ocevidaca

Ко су ти живи сведоци? Павле? Не, он никад није видео Исуса. 11 апостола? Далеко више Хрвата тврди да је видело Девицу Марију у Међугорју.

Ја сам већ писао на овом форуму о огромним разликама и грешкама у јеванђељима, што и није чудо кад се узме у обзир да су написана неколико деценија после наводних догађаја. Једноставно, свако је имао своју верзију.

Бил Гејтс и микрософт, требају бити сведоци о Христу, или имате неке поузданије???

Па у Христа нису поверовали ни његови савременици, а видили су чуда која је стварао, видили су многа оздрављења ни ви ововремени скептици нисте ништа бољи.

"СРце је верификатор истине!" Вера излази из срца, ако је тамо немате, ниједна мождана станица је неће пронаћи. И нико вас неће убједити у Христа.

Или га имаш у срцу или немаш.