Да ли су пре ,пада' постојали други људи осим Адама и Еве?

[cloudking]

Sada ces dobiti odgovor da On i nije toliko ziveo, da je to metafora, ili da najverovatnije nije ni postojao

Bravo!

[Ignjatije]

Па наравно да није постојао, него шта је него метафора.

znaaaaao

Ja verujem da jeste postojao i da je zaista toliko ziveo. Cak i da jeste metafora, tj. prica, to ne menja nasu novozavetnu veru, kao sto pojedini protestanti, adventisti, kreacionisti.... veruju.

[Justin Waters]

znaaaaao

Ja verujem da jeste postojao i da je zaista toliko ziveo. Cak i da jeste metafora, tj. prica, to ne menja nasu novozavetnu veru, kao sto pojedini protestanti, adventisti, kreacionisti.... veruju.

Па наравно да си знао.

И наравно да не мијења новозавјетну вјеру, јер ја радије посматрам те причице о Адаму у контексту будућности, а не прошлости. Наш однос са Богом има само један правац, а то је као будућности и оно што ишчекујемо, живот будућег вијека, и то је амин.

[Paladije]

Hmm...ne može se sve tako gledati, r

Па наравно да није постојао, него шта је него метафора.

hmm...Ne može se sve tako gledati racionalistički..to me podsjeća na protestantski nauk...vjerom treba da prihvatimo takve stvari, naravno da je prisutna alegorija i matafora u pojednim djelovima sv Pisma , ali godine pra oca Adama, i Metuzalema upravo objašnjavaju mnoštvo pitanja...ko može da primi neka primi...

[Justin Waters]

Naravno da su se pramajka i praotac i njihova deca množili međusobno. Ne znam šta je tu sablažnjivo. To je bila volja Božija radi punjenja Zemlje ljudima.

Mi možemo samo svojim bolesnim umovima da takve veze koje su postojale među prvim ljudima, poredimo sa današnjim bolesnim incestuoznim vezama.

Cela priroda živi i razmnožava se međusobno. Ne pita se ko je bata a ko seka, ili tata mama. Zato što stvorovi ne mogu da se razmnožavaju drugačije, nego polnim putem, ali stvorovi ne gledaju jedni druge kao predmete seksualne naslade, već to što rade, rade zbog svojih nagona.

Prvi ljudi su isto imali nagone, i nisu ni mogli da imaju izopačenu sliku o svojim srodnicima kao o nekim objektima seksualne naslade.

Uzmite životinje koje se razmnožavaju bez da se gleda ko je bata-seka. Govorim o divljim životinjama. Nakot tako spojenih životinja nije degenerisan i bolestan, kao u slučaju ljudskih bića.

Oni mogu, ljudi više ne. Kod današnjih ljudi to je greh, kod praljudi to nije bio greh.

Не мораш ти да се питаш ко је бака, а ко сека. Довољно је имати полни однос са секом, и да вам се са великим процентом роди дегенерично дијете потпуно неотпорно на средину. О томе је ријеч.

[Zoran Pavic]

Zna li iko da li je Eva rađala prije pada?

[Paladije]

Zna li iko da li je Eva rađala prije pada?

Eva nije radjala prije pada, nego tek kasnije je Gospod blagoslovio radjanje i množenje, mada neki sveti Oci govore da bi i to bilo, ali na jedan drugačiji način...

[Justin Waters]

Hmm...ne može se sve tako gledati, r

hmm...Ne može se sve tako gledati racionalistički..to me podsjeća na protestantski nauk...vjerom treba da prihvatimo takve stvari, naravno da je prisutna alegorija i matafora u pojednim djelovima sv Pisma , ali godine pra oca Adama, i Metuzalema upravo objašnjavaju mnoštvo pitanja...ko može da primi neka primi...

Протестани уопше нису рационални.

Вјером су некад људи прихватали да је земља утврђена на води, па није. Вјером су примали да се сунце помиче по небеском своду, па није. Ради се о биологији ствари која писцима Старог Завјета није била позната нити их је Бог могао силити да напишу причу која би била у складу са стварним механизмим у природи, јер они то не би разумјели.

[Paladije]

Вјером су некад људи прихватали да је земља утврђена на води, па није. Вјером су примали да се сунце помиче по небеском своду, па није. Ради се о биологији ствари која писцима Старог Завјета није била позната нити их је Бог могао силити да напишу причу која би била у складу са стварним механизмим у природи, јер они то не би разумјели.

Sve to stoji, ako se gleda iz savremenog svijeta, odnosno iz ugla biologije i medicine,... ali ovde su u pitanju prvi ljudi, i oni su bili osjenjeni blagodaću Božijom, i ona ih je štitila da bi izvršili zapovjest Božiju o radjanju..., i takva je bila promisao Božija o prvim ljudima, ne vidim šta je tu sporno, To se mora vjerom prihvatiti..!

[w.a.mozart]

Zna li iko da li je Eva rađala prije pada?

zar odgovor na ovo najveće od svih pitanja nije dat u onoj prvobitnoj verziji biblije... onoj koju Mojsej nije smeo da objavi zbog gneva Izrailja pa je zakopao na gori Hisaru a u medjuvremenu razradio official version

[w.a.mozart]

mada neki sveti Oci govore da bi i to bilo, ali na jedan drugačiji način...

pupljenjem... mislim da sveti Teodor Studit to pominje

[Paladije]

Протестани уопше нису рационални.

Nisu racionalni, ne bih se složio sa tim, jer ako se sjetimo Rudolfa Bultmana i demitologizacije koju je on razvio do krajnih sekvenci, i njegov uticaj koji je ostavio na pokolenja samo jos više svjedoči o tome koliko su protenstanti zabrazdili u nekim stvarima... bar što se tiče racionalizma....

[Justin Waters]

Sve to stoji, ako se gleda iz savremenog svijeta, odnosno iz ugla biologije i medicine,... ali ovde su u pitanju prvi ljudi, i oni su bili osjenjeni blagodaću Božijom, i ona ih je štitila da bi izvršili zapovjest Božiju o radjanju..., i takva je bila promisao Božija o prvim ljudima, ne vidim šta je tu sporno, To se mora vjerom prihvatiti..!

Небитан је савремени свијет, већ биологија која је била иста и прије и данас. А адамови потомци се нису рађали у рају, већ ван раја и те благодати, дакле послије пада, дакле када је већ све било као што је и данас. Тек у 4 глави књиге постања описано је да је Адам познао Еву, значи након што су били избачени из раја и херувим беше постављен тамо вамо да хода и чува улаз, тад им се по причи родио Каин. Дакле Каин је рође у стању палости и смртности, с тога за рађање адамових потомака важила су исти генетска начела као и за савремене људе. Не треба прећи олако преко ове чињенице.

[Justin Waters]

Nisu racionalni, ne bih se složio sa tim, jer ako se sjetimo Rudolfa Bultmana i demitologizacije koju je on razvio do krajnih sekvenci, i njegov uticaj koji je ostavio na pokolenja samo jos više svjedoči o tome koliko su protenstanti zabrazdili u nekim stvarima... bar što se tiče racionalizma....

Ја одбацујем такођер свако изједначавање рационализма са позитивизом. Него бити рационалан значи бити разуман, а протестанти су углавном неразумни. Неки од њих и сами признају да не користе свој разум, и оптужују друге када им се противи ставовима да су подложни разуму којег не ваља користити. Да су рационални - разумни не би толико упорно ширили креационизам, да су рационални не би се ограничавали само на Св.Писмо већ би разумјели да св.Писмо почива на усменом, а не на писемном предању, и остале ствари које их раздвајају од православног па и римокатоличког хришћанства.

[grigorije22]

Where Did Cain Get His WIfe? - Genetics and the Bible

04/07/12 06:14 PM Filed in: Human Origins|Human Genetics

The ideas surrounding the concept of where Cain got his wife were first popularized in the famous Scope's trial in 1925 in Tennessee. At one point in the trial, ACLU attorney Clarence Darrow questioned prosecutor Williams Jennings Bryan along these lines. See a section of the transcript below (1).

Q - Did you ever discover where Cain got his wife?

A - No sir; I leave the agnostics to hunt for her.

Q - You have never found out?

A - I have never tried to find.

Q - You have never tried to find?

A - No.

Q - The bible says he got one doesn't it? Were there other people on the earth at that time?

A - I cannot say.

Q - You cannot say? Did that ever enter your consideration?

A - Never bothered me.

Q - There were no others recorded, but Cain got a wife?

A - That is what the bible says.

Q - Where she came from you do not know?

This clear lack of defense of the bible's authority using the issue about Cain’s wife has plagued Christianity ever since and been repeated in a number of books and movies. Even Carl Sagan popularized the argument in his book ‘Contact’ (2), which was subsequently used to make a Hollywood movie.

Every Christian should be able to defend the four main objections about Cain's wife. And if you are not a Christian, then please read and consider the following brief explanations.

“Where did Cain get his wife and were there other human populations around to provide his wife?”

Answer => While Cain was the first born to Adam and Eve, Seth and Abel are also mentioned as offspring. The Bible also states that others were born to Adam and Eve, but does not give their specific names or the total number of offspring. The Bible states “and he [Adam] begat sons and daughters: And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years” (Genesis 5:4-5). Hebrew tradition recorded by Jewish Historian Flavius Josephus indicates that Adam and Eve had 33 sons and 23 daughters (3). The Bible indicates that they each lived over 900 years, so there capacity to produce large populations very quickly is clearly feasible. Eve is the “mother of all living” as stated in Genesis 3:20 and recent mitochondrial DNA research spectacularly supports a single maternal human ancestor (4,5). Therefore, Cain must have married a close relative - probably a sister or even a first cousin was possible. At this point in time, the human genome would have been pristine and void of mutations. Marriages between close relatives would have had no negative issues regarding inbreeding. Since pre-flood humans lived extremely long lives, this bio-genetic trend could have continued for several thousand years without any negative effects.

“Does not God forbid close marriages between offspring?”

Answer => Close marriages were not outlawed by God until ~2500 years after the creation account in the Bible’s book of Leviticus. This was for several reasons. FIrst, the accumulation of mutations in the human genome would have reached a level where close marriages between siblings could produce deformed offspring by this time (6). This is the primary reason why close marriages are now discouraged in modern times and inbreeding deformities related to mutation accumulation in the genome is a well documented scientific fact. However, up until the time of Leviticus, marriages between siblings and cousins were common. The famous Bible character and father of the Israelite Nation, Abraham, married his half sister as described in Genesis 20:12 (~2000 years after Creation). Another reason was that God was establishing the Israelite nation in Leviticus and was giving the people highly structured civil and societal laws to live by. Thus, stronger laws regarding marriage relations and family structure were needed to build a strong nation and society for the new country of Israel.

“Cain did not ‘know’ his wife until he left for the land of Nod after murdering Abel so there must have been other populations where he got his wife.”

Answer => The word ‘Nod’ means ‘wandering’ in the hebrew language, so this phrase simply means that Cain first took up a nomadic lifestyle wandering around “East of Eden” as described in Genesis 4:16. This wandering lifestyle also fits with the curse God placed on Cain (“a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.”) Although not specifically stated, the Bible does suggest that Cain was already married and took his wife with him. The Genesis 4:17 text says that after Cain left Eden to live a nomadic lifestyle, it was then that “Cain knew his wife; and she conceived”. The bible also says that "in the process of time" cain murdered Abel (Genesis 5:3). Seth was born shortly after this tragic event, so we know it was about 130 years of elapsed time as stated in the Genesis text. There was plenty of time for populations to develop in different geographical areas around Eden within 130 years after Cain was born to acquire a wife outside the immediate region where he was banished, if that was actually the case.

“Cain was fearful of his life after he left so there must have been other populations that he was scared of.”

Answer => As stated above, there was plenty of time for populations to build up by the time Abel was murdered. The people living in the different areas around Eden would definitely have been mad at Cain for murdering Abel since they were all closely related and probably still very upset about it.

The Bible is highly supportive of all aspects of Cain being able to acquire a wife. The Bible also clearly supports modern concepts of genetics which have only recently become known and put into standard practice. Up through the early 1900’s, royal family bloodlines in Europe and Russia would often arrange close marriages and suffer many negative consequences in their offspring as a result. Isn’t it amazing that at just about the right time in Biblical history, when the human genome would have accumulated enough mutations to pose a serious threat, that God would institute societal laws to maintain healthy genetic populations? It is also very interesting that recent research in human mitochondrial DNA fully supports a single maternal ancestor for all humans - Eve, the mother of all living.

References:

1) Bryan College. 1990. The World’s Most Famous Court Trial, Tennessee Evolution Case (word-for-word report), page 302.

2) Sagan, C. 1985. Contact. Pocket Books, NY, NY, pages 19-20.

3) Josephus, F. 1981. The Complete Works of Falvius Josephus. Translated by W. Whiston. Kregel Publications, Grand Rapids Michigan, page 27.

4) Carter, R. 2007. Mitochondrial diversity within modern human populations. Nucleic Acids Research 35:3039-3045.

5) Carter, R, D. Criswell, and J. Sanford. 2008. The “Eve” Mitochondrial Consensus Sequence. Sixth International Conference on Creationism (pages 111–116). Pittsburgh, PA: Creation Science Fellowship and Dallas, TX: Institute for Creation Research.

6) Sanford, J. 2010. Genetic Entropy & The Mystery of the Genome (3rd edition). Amazon.com ISBN-13: 978-0981631608.

Picture credit: http://www.live4god.org/Cain_and_Abel008.jpg