Православље западног обреда

[Sudija]

Ok,pojasnite tu Zapadnu pravoslavnu liturgiju.Neko ko zaista zna a ne teoretičari!

Da li je to ustvari liturgija koja je praktikovana u Zapadnoj Evropi i Britaniji na onim mestima gde su Irski monasi širili Hrišćanstvo,pa se posle takva liturgija,i ostalo,ukunilo na sinodu u Vitbiju?

[Gandalf Sivi]

To su liturgije koje su se na zapadu koristile prije Velike šizme...

[Zayron]

Pravoslavni zapadnog obreda ne koriste Tridentsku liturgiju, već kako je oni nazivaju Rimsku liturgiju svetog Grigorija Velikog...

 

Koriste se minimalnio prepravljenim Tridentinskim Misalom koliko ja znam, tamo je samo izbačeno da se spominje papa i slične stvari, sve te takozvane latinske "rubrike" ostale iste. Čak nije ni prerađen, prosto uzet i minimalno prepravljen, kao što sam rekao.

[Zayron]

Ok,pojasnite tu Zapadnu pravoslavnu liturgiju.Neko ko zaista zna a ne teoretičari!

Da li je to ustvari liturgija koja je praktikovana u Zapadnoj Evropi i Britaniji na onim mestima gde su Irski monasi širili Hrišćanstvo,pa se posle takva liturgija,i ostalo,ukunilo na sinodu u Vitbiju?

 

izgleda da nije ako se koriste tridentinskim Misalom, jer između 1054 i Tridenta su održane 24 što sinode, što Koncila i nekoliko liturgijskih reformi čijih je Trident organskom posljedicom i rezultatom a sve one su se nadostavljale jedna na drugu:

 

Synoda v Piacenze (1095)

Clermontská synoda (1095)

Rouenská synoda (1096)

Římská synoda (1099)

První lateránský koncil, na Západě ekumenický koncil (1123)

Clermontská synoda (1130)

Druhý lateránský koncil, na Západě ekumenický koncil (1139)

Remešská synoda (1147)

Tourská synoda (1163)

Třetí lateránský koncil, na Západě ekumenický koncil (1179)

Veronská synoda (1184)

Čtvrtý lateránský koncil, na Západě ekumenický koncil (1215)

Toulouská synoda (1229)

Tarragonská synoda (1234)

První lyonský koncil (1245), na Západě ekumenický koncil (1312)

Salcburský koncil (1292)

Viennský koncil, na Západě ekumenický koncil (1311 až 1312)

Zamorská synoda (1313)

První palamitský koncil, uznává část pravoslavných jako ekumenický (1341)

Druhý palamitský koncil, uznává část pravoslavných jako ekumenický (1351)

Pisánský koncil (1409)

Kostnický koncil, na Západě ekumenický koncil (1414 - 1418)

Basilejský koncil, na Západě ekumenický koncil (1431 – 1449)

Pátý lateránský koncil, na Západě ekumenický koncil (1512 – 1517)

Homberská synoda (1526)

Tridentský koncil, pro katolickou církev ekumenický koncil (1545 – 1563)

 

Pogledajte sami:

 

http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seznam_koncilů_a_synod

[Zayron]

Idemo dalje. primjer: koliko puta se u Tridentinskoj Misi ponavljaju jektenije Kýrie, eléison., Christe, eléison, Kýrie, eléison? Idite na neku od ovih stranica pa si to tamo prebrojite i napište rezulatat ovdje, šta ste tamo vidjeli i našli da piše: A ja vam potom reknem koliko ih je bilo pred Tridentom i po starom latinskom predraskolovom obredu.

 

http://www.fisheaters.com/TLMinstructions.html

http://www.sanctamissa.org/en/rubrics/

http://www.liturgies.net/Liturgies/Catholic/TridentineLatinEnglish.htm

 

Dopunjeno:

 

izgleda da nije ako se koriste tridentinskim Misalom, jer između 1054 i Tridenta su održane 24 što sinode, što Koncila i nekoliko liturgijskih reformi čijih je Trident organskom posljedicom i rezultatom a sve one su se lančano nadostavljale jedna na drugu, organski i hronološki proizlazile jedna iz druge: liturgija d je bila prepravljena c,  c prepravljena b a b prepravljena a itd.:

[Zayron]

Evo šta sam ja našao o tome, prenio sam cio post da ne bude žalbi na izvlačenje iz konteksta i sl. Western Orthodoxes se koriste istovrememo kako koja liturgijska zajednica trima obredima i drže Misu - liturgiju na tri razna načina prema trima misalima: 

 

Izvor. 

http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/14122/all/SSPX_and_the_Eastern_Catholic_

 

1. Tridentska Misa prema tridentinskom obredu 

2. Anglokatolička Misa prema Sarum obredu

3.  Misa, liturgija sv. Tihona prema antiohijskog

zapadnoobrednog vikarijata - bazirana na Tridentskoj Misi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liturgy_of_St_Tikhon

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Liturgy_of_St._Tikhon_of_Moscow

 

Excellent post, Big Guy! I want to address the two major points you raise. The Western Rites of Orthodoxy are truly Western - please bear with me for a moment. I attended one of their conferences to see for myself, in this instance, the Antiochian Orthodox Church.

They have two Rites, one Tridentine, the other Anglican or "Rite of St Tykhon" blessed by the Patriarch of Antioch himself.

In terms of the Epiclesis, this is an issue that came up in the 19th century among Russian Orthodox who were reviewing the Tridentine Liturgy. They (correctly) stated that the Liturgy once HAD an epiclesis that slowly disappeared. They found older examples of the Liturgy of St Peter and could actually reconstruct at which point the Epiclesis was inserted (following the words concerning the taking of the Offering by the Angel up to God etc.). They actually put it to the Latin Catholic Church that it should restore the Epiclesis. The Orthodox version of the Tridentine Liturgy certainly does restore the Epiclesis. There are, however, some western Liturgies that have no epiclesis, never did, but that is a separate issue. The Western Rite Orthodox practice Western Rite spirituality. They even have statues (Our Lady of Walsingham was one I saw) and rosaries and Stations of the Cross. "So does my local Ukrainian CAtholic parish," you might say by way of rejoinder. But someone by Fr. Schneirla of the Antiochian Western Rite Deanery is totally committed to Western Orthodox spirituality. That these Western Riters are more grounded in patristics than their Roman confreres is not "Byzantinization" but a going back to the common sources of the undivided Faith and Church prior to 1054 AD. They do cross themselves using three fingers. But that is the way the ENTIRE Church used to make the Sign of the Cross - the whole hand in the West came about much later and that by a mistake made by the laity in imitating the priest blessing the people. The use of icons? Again, a common Western Church practice prior to the split. Iconostases? The Church in England called them "Rood Screens" or "Cross Screens" and the Sarum Rite had the priest distribute Communion at the Royal Doors underneath the Cross on top of the screen. I have come across converts from Catholicism to Orthodoxy who are almost violently against the Western Rites. My Anglican convert friend is one of them. The argument that these are somehow "Uniatism in reverse" is rather ridiculous, however. No one is imposing Western Rite Orthodoxy on anyone, as was often the case with the various "Unions" with groups of Eastern Christians in history. Western Rite Orthodox groups are encouraged to foster their Particular spiritualities by the Eastern Patriarchs under whose Omophorion they are. Some Western Rite Orthodox are enamoured with the Eastern Church, just as there are Eastern Catholics who love their Latinizations. And so what? My convert friend is violently against the Rite of St Tikhon because it reminds him of his bad experiences within Anglicanism that he has condemned wholesle, Lock, Stock and Barrel. The very iidea that the Anglican or Roman Rites that the converts have left behind could be as "Orthodox" as the Eastern spiritual culture that they have identified with Orthodoxy as a whole is a truly frightening enterprise. But they will get over it in time. If not, you'll find them finally returning to their mother churches in the end. Their fear is just a mask for their pain they continue to repress involving their continuing love for their former churches. Alex

 

Izvor: 

http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/14122/all/SSPX_and_the_Eastern_Catholic_

[Marjanovic]

"Никада, никада, никада не дозволите никоме да вам каже да је услов да будете православни – да будете источни"

Свети Јован Шангајски

[Marjanovic]

Православни бенедиктински манастир Христа Спаситеља http://christminster.org/ 

http://christminster.org/photos/

[kopitar]

On 16.09.2013. at 17:56, Marjanovic рече

Православни бенедиктински манастир Христа Спаситеља http://christminster.org/ 

http://christminster.org/photos/

Kako je moguće da Pravoslavni benediktinski samostan , ako sv. Benedikt bio katolik?

[Marjanovic]

Св. Бенедикт је светитељ од пре раскола 1054. године и као такав се поштује и у Православној цркви.  Православци западног обреда га као западног светитеља посебно поштују.

[Marjanovic]

Одлична страница  православних западнообредних заједница Руске праваославне заграничне цркве. На сајту се, поред основних информација о западном обреду, могу пронаћи и адресе парохија и манастира који користе западни обред, црквени календрар, часопис, фотографије али и текстови западних литургија и других служби. Све препоруке за оне које занима ова тематика!

 

 

http://www.rocor-wr.org/

[Dominika]

Филм о 3 свештеника, који су открили Православље западног обреда

 

[Marjanovic]

Одличан филм!

[Iulianus]

Ovi su "pravoslavni" koliko i Mrzoljub Sebepetrović. Starokatolici verovatno, ili nekakvi "slobodni" katolici kakvih je na zapadu tušta i tma. (Verujte neveniku kad vam reče )

[Iulianus]

To je, sve u svemu, samo, "dosta ste, bre, vi zapadni krali od/nas, sad je red da mi istočni krademo od/vas".