Ekumenska molitva u pravoslavnoj crkvi u Dubrovniku

[Zayron]

Dva vrlo zanimiljiva teksta o Filioque ali oba na italijanskom, ko zna italijanski nek pročita. 

 

GIOVANNI PAOLO UDIENZA GENERALE Mercoledì, 7 novembre 1990

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1990/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_19901107_it.html

 

Giovanni Romanidis
COME SONO AFFRONTATE LE TEMATICHE TEOLOGICHE IN ALCUNE RIUNIONI ECUMENICHE

http://tradizione.oodegr.com/tradizione_index/problematiche/affrtematichroman.htm

[Zayron]

Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI have recited the Nicene Creed jointly with Patriarchs Demetrius I and Bartholomew I in Greek without the Filioque clause.[15][207][208]

The Filioque was the main subject discussed at the 62nd meeting of the North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation, in June 2002. In October 2003, the Consultation issued an agreed statement, The Filioque: A Church-Dividing Issue?, which provides an extensive review of Scripture, history, and theology. The recommendations include:
That all involved in such dialogue expressly recognize the limitations of our ability to make definitive assertions about the inner life of God.
That, in the future, because of the progress in mutual understanding that has come about in recent decades, Orthodox and Catholics refrain from labeling as heretical the traditions of the other side on the subject of the procession of the Holy Spirit.
That Orthodox and Catholic theologians distinguish more clearly between the divinity and hypostatic identity of the Holy Spirit (which is a received dogma of our Churches) and the manner of the Spirit's origin, which still awaits full and final ecumenical resolution.
That those engaged in dialogue on this issue distinguish, as far as possible, the theological issues of the origin of the Holy Spirit from the ecclesiological issues of primacy and doctrinal authority in the Church, even as we pursue both questions seriously, together.
That the theological dialogue between our Churches also give careful consideration to the status of later councils held in both our Churches after those seven generally received as ecumenical.
That the Catholic Church, as a consequence of the normative and irrevocable dogmatic value of the Creed of 381, use the original Greek text alone in making translations of that Creed for catechetical and liturgical use.
That the Catholic Church, following a growing theological consensus, and in particular the statements made by Pope Paul VI, declare that the condemnation made at the Second Council of Lyons (1274) of those "who presume to deny that the Holy Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father and the Son" is no longer applicable.

In the judgment of the consultation, the question of the Filioque is no longer a "Church-dividing" issue, which would impede full reconciliation and full communion. It is for the bishops of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches to review this work and to make whatever decisions would be appropriate.[15]

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filioque#Roman_Catholic

[Zayron]

Zanimljiva rasprava na Byzantine Forumu: 

 

Two lungs but how to breathe? - Dva pluća, ali kako disati?

http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/129442/1

[Давидова]

Колико видим, ово је заједничко саопштење са православно-римокатоличких теолошких консултација са препорукама ( "The recommendations include:")из Северне Америке . Значи није званични акт римокатоличке цркве. Претпостављам да тако значајно питање као што је статус филиокве решава папа или неко тело у Ватикану, а не решава се препорукама са теолошких консултација.

 

Моје питање и даље остаје: да ли је неким званичним актом неког тела римокатоличке цркве филиокве одбачено или проглашено за теологумену?

[Zayron]

Pitali ste za taj dokumenat kojim se potvrđuje da je u katoličkom Vjerovanju u KC Filioque teologumena. 

To je dokumenat pod ovim naziivom i naslovom. Izdat je 1995 ma zahtjev pape Jovana Pavla II.

 

"The Father as the Source of the Whole Trinity - the Procession of the Holy Spirit in Greek and Latin Traditions."

 

Imate ga ovdje. 

 

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=1176&CFID=36417625&CFTOKEN=85687126

 

Concerning the infamous conflict over the Filioque, it doesn't appear to be the stumbling block that it once was. In 1995 the Holy Father asked the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity to reconsider the issue. At his request, they issued a marvelous document entitled: "The Father as the Source of the Whole Trinity - the Procession of the Holy Spirit in Greek and Latin Traditions."

This document acknowledged the Eastern understanding of the Father as the source of the Trinity as being definitive for the Catholic Church. The Orthodox were concerned that Catholics claimed that the Father and Son BOTH were the source of the Trinity. This document puts that fear to rest.

In fact, this document goes so far as to state that the Creed WITHOUT the Filioque is the normative form of the Creed for the entire Catholic Church. It says:

"The Catholic Church acknowledges the conciliar, ecumenical, normative, and irrevocable value, as expression of the one common faith of the Church and of all Christians, of the Symbol professed in Greek at Constantinople in 381 by the Second Ecumenical Council. No profession of faith peculiar to a particular liturgical tradition can contradict this expression of the faith taught by the undivided Church," (paragraph no. 2).

The Holy Father has warmly embraced this document, and has implemented it himself. Whenever concelebrating with Eastern bishops, or during ecumenical prayer services, the Holy Father always celebrates the Creed minus the Filioque.

[draganzzz]

Ja sad postavim dvije slike pa ih možemo usporedizi i prokomentarisati ko hoće: 

 

 

Vladika +Grigorije i biskup Uzinić upravoslavnoj crkvi u Fibrovniku, molitvena osmina za jedinstvo hrišćana 2013

 

 

Gréckokatolícky biskup v plnom oblečení - vladyka Cyril Vasiľ 6. januára 2013 v Bazilike sv. Petra v Ríme počas pontifikálnej sv. omše s rímskym pápežom Benediktom XVI. Takto vyzerá slávnostné mimoliturgické biskupské oblečenie byzantských katolíckych biskupov.

 

Grkokatolički biskup u punoj opremi - vladika Cyril Vasiľ 6. januara 2013 u Bazilici sv. Petra i Pavla u Rimu za vrijeme pontifikalne sv. Mise s rimskim papom Benediktom XVI. Ovako izgleda svečana mimoliturgijska odežda bizantinokatoličkih biskupa.

 

I s ovih slika i s videa se da vidjet da su oba vladike i pravoslavni +Grigorije i bizantinokatolički +Cyril obučeni vrlo slično ili isto. 

 

Sad pitanje za liturgičare a i ostale teologe na forumu:

Može li u pravoslavlju episkop ili arhiepiskop držati, služiti valjanu liturgiju u ovakvim mimoliturgijskim odeždama? 

 

 

 

 

Preblizo stoje jedan pored drugog,

nisam siguran ali kanoni govore da ne sme ispod 50cm da bude razdaljina prilikom molitve,

inace je teska jeres u pitanju!

 

p.s. od ramena se meri razdaljina.

 

[Zayron]

Ovdje imate Creed - Credo veliku istorijsku i teološku, hronološku i komparativnu rekapitulaciju,

tamo je detaljno vremenski i teološki zaregistrovano sve što se po tom pitanju događalo kroz vijekove: 

 

Ja izdvojim samo par najnovijih stavki koje se odnose na katoličku Crkvu,

ostalo si potom pročitajte sami na stranici od koje vam dajem taj llink ispod:

 

Nicean Creed - An explanation of the The addition of

"and from the Son"or "Filioque" by the Latin Catholic Church

http://www.mliles.com/melkite/prayers/niceancreedfilioquekeep2.shtml

 

The Father as the Source of the Whole Trinity The Procession of the Holy Spirit in Greek and Latin Traditions by the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity from Apologia: a Catholic Page for Protestants and Eastern Orthodox

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=1176&CFID=36417625&CFTOKEN=85687126

Pope John Paul II GENERAL AUDIENCE Wednesday 29 July 1998

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1998/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_29071998_en.html

Orthodox-Catholic Consultation Continues Study of the Filioque
The sixtieth meeting of the North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation was held at St. Vladimir's Orthodox Theological Seminary in Crestwood, NY, from May 29 to 31, 2001.

http://www.goarch.org/news/goa.news168

[Zayron]

Preblizo stoje jedan pored drugog,

nisam siguran ali kanoni govore da ne sme ispod 50cm da bude razdaljina prilikom molitve,

inace je teska jeres u pitanju!

 

p.s. od ramena se meri razdaljina.

 

 

:pravilaa: Strašno! Sad sam i ja to primjetio! Fali im dobrih 10 cm tamo! Ne mogu da povjerujem, sablažnjen sam! 

[Zayron]

Trebali bi se poučit od pape Benedikta XVI, kako on to ima riješeno, njemu se tako nešto ne može nikada desiti, ni slučajno. Heilige Vater zato sa sobom uvijek ima i svoju umbrellu - Regenschirm ili kišobran, s njim se prvo izmjeri razdaljina oko Svetog Oca i niko mu ne smije stajati bliže nego što je radijus tog kišobrana, samo njegov asistent - sekretar nadbiskup mons. Georg Gänswein .i bodigardi. Ko stoji slučano preblizu izgura se onda ljubazno ali odlučno tim kišobranom na tu ispravnu i dozvoljenu kanonsku razdaljinu od 50 cm. Trebali bi i oni dva, episkop +Grigorije i biskup Uzinić što prije u svoju neophodnu i obaveznu episkopsku i biskupsku opremu pridat i uključit i kušobran, takvo praktično pomogalo baš u takvim stvarima. Kanoni se moraju držat!

 

Pope Benedict "Umbrella"

http://youtu.be/6NozigsQR18

[Aristotel]

Колико видим, ово је заједничко саопштење са православно-римокатоличких теолошких консултација са препорукама ( "The recommendations include:")из Северне Америке . Значи није званични акт римокатоличке цркве. Претпостављам да тако значајно питање као што је статус филиокве решава папа или неко тело у Ватикану, а не решава се препорукама са теолошких консултација.

 

Моје питање и даље остаје: да ли је неким званичним актом неког тела римокатоличке цркве филиокве одбачено или проглашено за теологумену?

 

Pravo pitanje glasi: Kada JEST Katolička Crkva proglasila "Filioque" za dogmu?

 

Dogme ne proglašava "неко тело у Ватикану", nego opći koncil (vaseljenski sabor) ili papa sam (u pravilu nakon konzultacija sa cijelim episkopatom). Ovo drugo se dogodilo samo dva puta u ovih dvije hiljade godina.

 

Dakle, "Filioque" NIKAD NIJE bila dogma.

[Zayron]

Pravo pitanje glasi: Kada JEST Katolička Crkva proglasila "Filioque" za dogmu?

 

Dogme ne proglašava "неко тело у Ватикану", nego opći koncil (vaseljenski sabor) ili papa sam (u pravilu nakon konzultacija sa cijelim episkopatom). Ovo drugo se dogodilo samo dva puta u ovih dvije hiljade godina.

 

Dakle, "Filioque" NIKAD NIJE bila dogma.

 

Da, o tom smo pisali već nekoliko puta ovdje na Forumu i objašnjavali da Filioque nikada nikakvom dogmom nije bilo a ni sada, danas to nije. zato sam ja gore napisao to ovako a ne bez razloga: Trebao sam možda i ja to ovako proširit s ovim objašnjenjem ali nisam se sjetio ali gospodin Aristotel je u međuvremenu dopunio to što sam ja propustio spomenuti.

 

Pitali ste za taj dokumenat kojim se potvrđuje da je u katoličkom Vjerovanju u KC Filioque teologumena. 

 

Dakle s tim dokumentom se ne proglašava nikakva nova dogma ili ruši nekakva stara već samo potvrđuje onaj teološki stav koji je bio vladao nepromjenjeno sve do sada i do danas o Filioque kao teologumeni.  Zato je to tamo bilo napisano kako je napisano.

[Zayron]

Ona muzika je bila grozna pa sam napravio drugi video

s boljom muzikom, pokažem vam ga,  vesela i ljepša muzika:

 

http://youtu.be/FnC0u4NN2wM

[Zayron]

Stavio sam taj gore video i na Gloriju: http://gloria.tv/?media=394991

A tamo je i s ovim komentarom o jednoj zanimljivimoj istorijskoj suvislosti između Svete Stolice, papa i kišobrana.  Kišobran za svoju današnju veliku popularbnost i raširenost može biti zahvalan u dobroj mjeri i Vatikanu tj. papama koji su ga među prvim počeli upotrebljavati i često su ga poklanjali ostalim crkvenim velikodostejnicima i slali kao poklon po kraljevskim evropskim dvorovima praveći mu tako današnjim rječnikom rečeno dobru propagandnu kampanju i zaslužili se tako u velikoj mjeri o njegovu tadašnju uspješnu marketinško-komercijalnu reputaciju i širenje po cijeloj Evropi.

History of Umbrellas 

During the middle ages the umbrellas popularity declined from use, although it was still used in ceremonial regalia for the Pope, which some say originated from the brown and white parasol given to Pope Sylvester I by Emperor, Constantine the Great. The striped canopy of an umbrella depicted in the papal colours of Red and Gold above the cross keys of St Peter was used on a papal badge. Known as an ombrellino, it is still worn by the Cardinal Camerlengo as acting head of the Catholic Church during an interregnum in the papacy. By the 15th Century, as the power of the church weakened, high-ranking nobility and church dignitaries used different coloured ombrellinos and this most likely gave rise to the use of an umbrella as a fashion accessory.
.It was the influence of the Church that resulted the spread of Umbrellas across Europe. The trend started in Italy and can be traced back to the 12th Century when Pope Alexander III granted the Doge of Venice the right to have a parasol carried over him.
More: http://www.oakthriftumbrellas.com/pages/umbrellas4.htm

[N.Petrovic]

E ovo ti je najjace.

Iako ti moze izgledati neshvaljivo, ali sv.Marko Efeski i sv.Cirilo i Metodije, imaju mnogo toga zajednickog. Istog Boga, istu veru, istu Crkvu.... da ti ne nabrajam.

 

@N.Petrovic

 

Tim bilo mišljeno to da se ne ugledam na neuspješne već samo na uspješne ekumeniste kao uzor,  

Sveti Ćiril i Metodije su dokazali da su neuporedivo uspješnijim ekumenistima od sv.Marka Efeskog.

 

 

Opet gresis i izvrces. Sveti Cirilo i Metodije su se bavili misionarstvom. Oni su bili misionari  nekoliko vekova pre nego ste vi nastali.

 

A ekumenizam je vas porod, a i drvo se po rodu poznaje, zar ne. 

[Zayron]

Opet gresis i izvrces. Sveti Cirilo i Metodije su se bavili misionarstvom. Oni su bili misionari  nekoliko vekova pre nego ste vi nastali.

 

A ekumenizam je vas porod, a i drvo se po rodu poznaje, zar ne. 

 

http://archive.catholicherald.co.uk/article/5th-july-1985/2/slav-ecumenists-and-conciliators

http://thegoodheart.blogspot.cz/2011/02/cyril-methodius-scholars-ecumenists.html

http://slavachristu.phorum.cz/?file=kop8.php

 

General Audience on Saints Cyril and Methodius, June 17, 2009

http://youtu.be/vR__g4iuPKM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Pope: Cyril and Methodius are examples of inculturation

http://youtu.be/Q8fUuLjVOCY

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Rome celebrates Jubilee of St. Cyril and Methodius for 1150 anniversary

http://youtu.be/clR5izPuSo8

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

SS. Cyril & Methodius Greeting

http://youtu.be/0uZvpUeJgjM